Collimatrix Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 Did STG armed units even perform better than non-STG armed units in the Wehrmacht? I don't recall reading any records of Allied troops complaining about being outgunned by STG-44s either. I had heard anecdotally that some STG-armed units in the Ardennes offensive were measurably more effective, but I have no idea what the source is for that. There simply were never that many STG-armed units in a meaningful sense, and not for the reason most people think. About half a million were produced, so the guns themselves were relatively plentiful. The same could not be said for the unique ammunition, however, and the magazines were also always in short supply. I have a memoir from an SS member on the Eastern Front who mentions being issued an STG late in the war... and no ammo. Full Circle mentions Albert Speer inspecting units with new STGs and no ammo, and complaining that this was occurring semi-routinely. Sturgeon and That_Baka 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meplat Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 And Mausers. Shit loads of Mausers which were handed out like candy post World War 2 since they were plentiful, cheap and easy for a shit-digging peasant to operate. https://books.google.com/books?id=W7Q4AgAAQBAJ&pg=PP112&lpg=PP112&dq=Viet+minh+mauser&source=bl&ots=dGkDLXSsxr&sig=xS1l_JwyUpz-YMCQ16c6twbC7lA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CB0Q6AEwAGoVChMIkPvi69OYyQIVglGICh0otgxf#v=onepage&q=Viet%20minh%20mauser&f=false Most of the Viteminh arms at the time were a mishmash of Japanese arms, US LL /Aid arms, some Mausers (via China) and BREN's (again via China). This was intermixed with French arms which were a lot of U.S. arms, and some British and a bit of French. Sturgeon and Donward 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Priory_of_Sion Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 I had heard anecdotally that some STG-armed units in the Ardennes offensive were measurably more effective, but I have no idea what the source is for that. There simply were never that many STG-armed units in a meaningful sense, and not for the reason most people think. About half a million were produced, so the guns themselves were relatively plentiful. The same could not be said for the unique ammunition, however, and the magazines were also always in short supply. I have a memoir from an SS member on the Eastern Front who mentions being issued an STG late in the war... and no ammo. Full Circle mentions Albert Speer inspecting units with new STGs and no ammo, and complaining that this was occurring semi-routinely. Fg-42 armed Fallshirmjager units did pretty well for themselves, but I'd imagine they usually had ammo. I've never come across anything about STG armed Nazis that did nearly as well tactically. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tied Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 Well provided they had ammunition its safe to assume it would give SOME edge tactically, thing is it tends not to be the wonderweapon people make it out to be unless it does something strategically Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T___A Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 Ian and Karl are putting far too much stock in a weapon that offered a small firepower advantage in a war where 80% of causalities were caused by artillery and aerial bombardment. Bronezhilet and Sturgeon 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meplat Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 Ian and Karl are putting far too much stock in a weapon that offered a small firepower advantage in a war where 80% of causalities were caused by artillery and aerial bombardment. It's akin to "who had the best pistol of WW2".. The proper answer is "Does it matter?". T___A, Sturgeon and Bronezhilet 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T___A Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 It's akin to "who had the best pistol of WW2".. The proper answer is "Does it matter?". Yeah, never in the history of warfare have infantry arms have been the number 1 cause of causalities. Until WW1 it was disease, after that it was artillery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex C. Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 I had heard anecdotally that some STG-armed units in the Ardennes offensive were measurably more effective, but I have no idea what the source is for that. There simply were never that many STG-armed units in a meaningful sense, and not for the reason most people think. About half a million were produced, so the guns themselves were relatively plentiful. The same could not be said for the unique ammunition, however, and the magazines were also always in short supply. I have a memoir from an SS member on the Eastern Front who mentions being issued an STG late in the war... and no ammo. Full Circle mentions Albert Speer inspecting units with new STGs and no ammo, and complaining that this was occurring semi-routinely. My sturm was picked up off of a dead kraut on the Western Front according to the widow of the old dude who sold it. I also was at our local high end gun store one day (that always has a sturm or two) and an older guy and his ancient father came in. The father pointed to the sturm, muttered something, and his son said "hey, my dad says he was issued one of those". The store froze and my ears perked up to hear what was going on. The old man spoke very bad English but they gave him the rifle to hold and he knew the controls by heart and his son was translating things like how many magazines he was issued, where he kept them on his person, and that they were ordered to never use full auto. If I recall correctly his son said he was 17 when he fought. It was eerie to see, but it was the only time I have ever seen a German WWII vet talk about their experience in person. Donward, Scolopax, Sturgeon and 3 others 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Priory_of_Sion Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 Yeah, never in the history of warfare have infantry arms have been the number 1 cause of causalities. Until WW1 it was disease, after that it was artillery. Even if you just count small arms, likelihood is that squad level MGs did the vast majority of the killing. MG 34s, DPs, and M1919s, etc. Can someone confirm/deny? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T___A Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 My sturm was picked up off of a dead kraut on the Western Front according to the widow of the old dude who sold it. I also was at our local high end gun store one day (that always has a sturm or two) and an older guy and his ancient father came in. The father pointed to the sturm, muttered something, and his son said "hey, my dad says he was issued one of those". The store froze and my ears perked up to hear what was going on. The old man spoke very bad English but they gave him the rifle to hold and he knew the controls by heart and his son was translating things like how many magazines he was issued, where he kept them on his person, and that they were ordered to never use full auto. If I recall correctly his son said he was 17 when he fought. It was eerie to see, but it was the only time I have ever seen a German WWII vet talk about their experience in person. So what that dude was saying is that the MP 44 was a glorified M1 Carbine? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex C. Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 So what that dude was saying is that the MP 44 was a glorified M1 Carbine? The guy was in his mid to late 80s so I reckon he was unwillingly conscripted. Last thing you want is poorly trained conscripts using full auto, ever, at all (especially when resupply aint gunna happen). Sturgeon 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T___A Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 The guy was in his mid to late 80s so I reckon he was unwillingly conscripted. Last thing you want is poorly trained conscripts using full auto, ever, at all (especially when resupply aint gunna happen). Well when the MP 44 rolled around unwilling conscripts probably made up a significant portion of the Heer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tied Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 Even if you just count small arms, likelihood is that squad level MGs did the vast majority of the killing. MG 34s, DPs, and M1919s, etc. Can someone confirm/deny? It really depends on the types of engagment Obviously it not hard to guess what held in lead in long range defensive engagements, but needing a guy to sit in a trench at close range to pop up empty his magazine and pop some nades/having assault teams rotate the same building with sub-machine guns/keeping a steady volume of rifle fire is just as important to a successful defense- which would be a flexible one I think it really comes down to nations A shitload of angry Mississippi boys holding a house with garands is alot more valuable to a small arms engagement than a m1919 at 300 or so meters Same could be said for submachineguns during the battle of Stalingrad I mean, 10 PPSHs or garands instead of one mg-42/stg-44 isnt just more rifles Its 9 more brains, its 9 more chances to notice something on the battlefield other than your task of hosing down that field with bullets Sturgeon 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tied Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 Well when the MP 44 rolled around unwilling conscripts probably made up a significant portion of the Heer. I wouldnt describe many Germans as unwilling taking a page from the Japanese in the Pacific theater, there is a very large difference between unequipped and unwilling Yes they might of surrendered in droves, but they were infact on the field to capitulate in the first place that and calling people unwilling to fight left and right really comes close to the 'just following orders' line Im not saying the Germans werent going to press everyone into service that they could, and im not going to say they didnt excuete alot of people that didnt take up a rifle, and there were a decent amount of people that did But the idea that majoity of germans werent unwilling to fight is false Hell just look at west German doctrine for the next 40 years, its pretty much "we are depending on people being determined to make """""""heroic""""""" last stands weather they are aware of how hopeless the situation is or not" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sturgeon Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 My sturm was picked up off of a dead kraut on the Western Front according to the widow of the old dude who sold it. The sad part about this is that just about every MP.44 I've ever seen came with a similar story. Judging by the way that other small arms generally were captured, there's no way to verify the story. Neat if true, though. I also was at our local high end gun store one day (that always has a sturm or two) and an older guy and his ancient father came in. The father pointed to the sturm, muttered something, and his son said "hey, my dad says he was issued one of those". The store froze and my ears perked up to hear what was going on. The old man spoke very bad English but they gave him the rifle to hold and he knew the controls by heart and his son was translating things like how many magazines he was issued, where he kept them on his person, and that they were ordered to never use full auto. If I recall correctly his son said he was 17 when he fought. It was eerie to see, but it was the only time I have ever seen a German WWII vet talk about their experience in person. That's a very cool story. I have such incredibly mixed feelings about German WWII veterans. On the one hand, I sympathize deeply with someone fighting for their country even if they don't agree with the leadership, on the other hand they signed up for an organization that in my opinion was basically a bag of rotten apples. Might have a few good ones here and there, but judging by things like Soldaten the organization of the Wehrmacht on the whole encouraged abuse and crime on a level alien to Americans. It's frustrating, too, to watch interviews of old German veterans from the war as they seem to cling to old myths like the clean Wehrmacht and the Soviets being worse. It might be hard to face having participated in an evil endeavor, I understand, but I would be more forgiving of honesty and regret than denial and defiance. That's just my perspective, though, and what do I know? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sturgeon Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 I mean, 10 PPSHs or garands instead of one mg-42/stg-44 isnt just more rifles Its 9 more brains, its 9 more chances to notice something on the battlefield other than your task of hosing down that field with bullets DINGDINGDINGDINGDING WE HAVE A WINNER Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tied Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 DINGDINGDINGDINGDING WE HAVE A WINNER Well alright who knew a former motor rifleman knew a thing or two about how a gun battle would work Belesarius and Sturgeon 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toxn Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 My sturm was picked up off of a dead kraut on the Western Front according to the widow of the old dude who sold it. I also was at our local high end gun store one day (that always has a sturm or two) and an older guy and his ancient father came in. The father pointed to the sturm, muttered something, and his son said "hey, my dad says he was issued one of those". The store froze and my ears perked up to hear what was going on. The old man spoke very bad English but they gave him the rifle to hold and he knew the controls by heart and his son was translating things like how many magazines he was issued, where he kept them on his person, and that they were ordered to never use full auto. If I recall correctly his son said he was 17 when he fought. It was eerie to see, but it was the only time I have ever seen a German WWII vet talk about their experience in person. Living in a country where pretty much every white male over 50 is a veteran, I've had plenty of experiences like this. One that I remember vividly is when I was working in a hobby shop and one of the customers came over to chat with my boss about some new models we'd gotten in from a South African model making company (these guys, if memory serves). Customer looks at a Ratel 20 model we had on display, starts chatting with my boss about how he served on one and they both just... stop. As in, they both tail off in mid sentence, go somewhere far away for a while, and then the customer turns and leaves the shop without a word. There were quite a few moments like that when I was growing up, including in my own household. Donward and Belesarius 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tied Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 As in, they both tail off in mid sentence, go somewhere far away for a while, and then the customer turns and leaves the shop without a word. Its the same on all comers of the globe There are probably little green men on mars that it happens too aswell they kind of just sit there, cigarette still lite in mouth, ashes falling and burning their hands looking downard 400 miles into the earth Kind of like a sense of bewilderment but from men who are more focused than anything you have seen in your life A sense of fear on a face that is more chillingly collected and still than anything you have ever seen maybe there is some last bit of warrior genes that haven been bred out my my heritage, and that tells you to go frigg off and do something else because two men are busy basking in the paralzying sensation of reliving daily what they had to do so my fat ass can sit at a bar getting shtifaced after an early day and complaining about my small shit problems to my self in silence God bless men like that, peace is truly wasted on those who have only known peace If you ever want a good scare and a reason to feel bad about yourself, visit a veterans home Toxn 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toxn Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 Its the same on all comers of the globe There are probably little green men on mars that it happens too aswell they kind of just sit there, cigarette still lite in mouth, ashes falling and burning their hands looking downard 400 miles into the earth maybe there is some last bit of warrior genes that haven been bred out my my heritage, and that tells you to go frigg off and do something else because two men are busy basking in the paralzying sensation of reliving daily what they had to do so my fat ass can sit at a bar getting shtifaced after an early day and complaining about my small shit problems to my self in silence God bless men like that, peace is truly wasted on those who have only known peace Indeed. And yet war never made any man better for it. My father's generation has a lot of broken men in in, who had to put themselves back together after the bush was done with them. I think the vast majority of them are happy that their children grew up in peace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tied Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 Indeed. And yet war never made any man better for it. My father's generation has a lot of broken men in in, who had to put themselves back together after the bush was done with them. I think the vast majority of them are happy that their children grew up in peace. It makes their sons better for it And as long as men are willing to forfeit themselves for the sakes of their sons, war is still worth being fought, and sons are sitll worth being conceived Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toxn Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 It makes their sons better for it And as long as men are willing to forfeit themselves for the sakes of their sons, war is still worth being fought, and sons are sitll worth being conceived Ironic, then, that the majority of the people who fight are too young to think of children yet. But it has been nice chatting, and I agree. There are some things worth fighting for, and there is something universal about the way that it marks the people who do fight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronezhilet Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 We have reached peak Wehraboo: That dude is special. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tied Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 Ironic, then, that the majority of the people who fight are too young to think of children yet. But it has been nice chatting, and I agree. There are some things worth fighting for, and there is something universal about the way that it marks the people who do fight. Well, atleast the men who play the biggest role in plaining and whining them all are Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donward Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 That dude is special. The fact that he thinks the Viet Minh had AK-47s at Dien Bien Phu is my favorite bit of that whole thread. Or was that Wolfe? I mean what are the odds of two guys with Wolf-like avatar names having the same shitty opinion? Sturgeon 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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