The Small Arms Thread, Part 8: 2018; ICSR to be replaced by US Army with interim 15mm Revolver Cannon.

[Donward]

I have always seen the Garand ping myth as something that would have come up organically. Looking at it from a practical standpoint, I could see that if I was issued a rifle that made a really audible noise when I was empty it would be a little unnerving. Yes, you fight with a unit, but there is that "what if" scenario in the back of your head.

Of course the small "what could happen" would then be mentioned often and make its way into colloquial firearm tales.

 

With the huge amount of people who have fought with M1s, I would find it unlikely that the ping has not fucked over at least one dude. Stranger things happened (see: shooting down an aircraft with a 1911). It has become one of those things that taints a firearm despite the incredible service record or other merits (like glocks exploding, M16 Vietnam jam machine, Beretta 92 slide ejection, etc.).

 

You are probably correct about the organic myth bit. 

 

I'm currently looking through the Medal of Honor citations for World War 2 and Korea. I know the Garand has been used in millions of individual little firefights that are now forgotten. But the MoH is handy in that it gives a nice accessible sample of extraordinary events. And in none of them can I find an example of the *ping* myth.

 

I'm not entirely convinced that the ping even messed up one dude. The Americans had 400,000 deaths in World War with 290,000 from combat. A good many of those were airmen on aircraft shot down or sailors on sunken ships. And then when you consider that the majority of infantry combat losses come from artillery and machine guns, it really narrows down the opportunity for that one Japanese or German soldier waiting patiently for that one lone GI or Marine to have his Garand go *Ping* so they could get the drop on him.

 

Having an empty rifle is what was the killer. And there were many a GI or Marine who died fumbling with his fiddly ammo belt trying to load his weapon during a Banzai charge or a German counter attack in the Ardennes, Normandy or Italy. I'm not half convinced that the *PING* wasn't a net win for the Americans since it is a handy mnemonic device telling Private Snuffy, "Hey jerk, your gun is now empty. Reload". Much like the military bolt actions have a magazine interrupter when empty for the conscripts who used them. 

 

The other killer was the M1 Garand malfunctioning. Searching through the MoH records, there are plenty of occurrences where the recipient's "rifle" jammed (the rifle in question no doubt being the Garand) and the recipient has to use a second or even a third rifle or he transfers to a carbine, a BAR, sub-machine gun, handgun or uses the rifle as a club. 

 

To be fair, there are plenty of instances where the M1 rifle fires clip after clip and performs fine. 

[cm_kruger]

Considering nobody wore hearing protection back then, would the ping even be loud enough to be heard over ambient noise by a enemy soldier 200-400 meters away who's been firing his rifle/subgun and probably also had support weapons/artillery going off near by? Would it even be audible at 25-50 meters?

[Khand-e]

Someone with the right equipment should try and test how high the decibel level of the M1 Garand ejecting a spent clip is from 1m, because I highly doubt it's above 70 decibels at that distance, let alone at combat ranges.

[Tied]

Considering nobody wore hearing protection back then, would the ping even be loud enough to be heard over ambient noise by a enemy soldier 200-400 meters away who's been firing his rifle/subgun and probably also had support weapons/artillery going off near by? Would it even be audible at 25-50 meters?

 

 

Someone with the right equipment should try and test how high the decibel level of the M1 Garand ejecting a spent clip is from 1m, because I highly doubt it's above 70 decibels at that distance, let alone at combat ranges.

 

 

Its plenty audible, but it being distinct enough to stand out in one direction or the other is another case, let alone that one rifleman is totally unsupported and would be easy pray 

[Khand-e]

Well I'm not denying it's audible, but, 70 decibels is a set threshold for human hearing and really isn't that loud, a lawnmower is about 90-95db from the same distance and I'd easily say a lawnmower at 1m is quite a bit louder then a Garand ejecting at 1m.

 

Honestly though, I'd guess like 70-80 tops for it, which isn't shit when you realize a difference of 10db = twice as loud and gunfire is in the 140-160+ range depending on many factors, with 150 and above being loud enough to potentially rupture your eardrums, somehow I think listening for a ping off in the distance would be the least of your concerns.

[Tied]

[Bronezhilet]

Remembered I had this picture laying around, wanted to send it to TFB but forgot about it. Oh well.

 

Royal Netherlands Army commando  in Mali.

[Brick Fight]

Speaking of myths, is there anything to back up the accusations that certain American bullets  had trouble piercing Chinese coats in Korea? I've had a lot of trouble believing in that confidently. I just got through Clay Blair's monster book, and don't remember it being mentioned.

[Sturgeon]

Absolutely no truth whatsoever. The guys missed.

[Donward]

Speaking of myths, is there anything to back up the accusations that certain American bullets  had trouble piercing Chinese coats in Korea? I've had a lot of trouble believing in that confidently. I just got through Clay Blair's monster book, and don't remember it being mentioned.

Absolutely no truth whatsoever. The guys missed.

 

What Sturgeon said. 

 

Now there was such a thing as "Carbine Syndrome" where GIs and Marines were less than satisfied with the M1 Carbine and its variants with the weapon being used as a scapegoat to explain away the soldiers' poor performance. No less a figure than General Chesty Puller was critical of the weapon - or more rather the coddling of troops - who only wanted to carry a lightweight weapon rather than having warriors capable of toting around a heavy, full-size battle rifle like the Garand. (I'm paraphrasing that from a biography on Puller that I recently read). 

 

I've been looking at the Medal of Honor page a lot and there were 18 recipients who used a "carbine" in clearing out bunkers, knocking out weapons crews or holding off various attacks. Most of these were officers and NCOs.

 

http://www.history.army.mil/moh/koreanwar.html

 

As Sturgeon said, I feel most of the soldiers either missed or did not have clean center of mass hits. And the "bad guys" have a desire to live and perform their duty too, so instead of flopping dramatically when shot once, the Reds were able to continue moving to cover. Just like numerous Marines and GIs who were shot and able to not succumb immediately to the effects of being shot.

 

I guess there is that story of surplus .30 Carbine ammunition that had been sitting around in the Pacific since World War 2 that was not as effective in the sub-zero temperatures of North Korea. But I'm not qualified to opine on the chemical characteristics of powder. But I can't imagine it making that big of difference.

[Sturgeon]

.30 Carbine is in between .357 Magnum (from a rifle) and 7.62x39 in power. Even if the cold and bad ammo was reducing the bullet's velocity, it wouldn't be going slow enough to not penetrate clothing.
 

Also, if the ammunition were so bad that the MV fell that far, the soldiers would know, because their guns wouldn't be cycling any more. Especially since the M1 Carbine is really sensitive about that sort of thing - early Wolf .30 Carbine won't cycle a USGI M1 reliably, for example.

[Donward]

.30 Carbine is in between .357 Magnum (from a rifle) and 7.62x39 in power. Even if the cold and bad ammo was reducing the bullet's velocity, it wouldn't be going slow enough to not penetrate clothing.

 

Also, if the ammunition were so bad that the MV fell that far, the soldiers would know, because their guns wouldn't be cycling any more. Especially since the M1 Carbine is really sensitive about that sort of thing - early Wolf .30 Carbine won't cycle a USGI M1 reliably, for example.

That's what I thought. 

 

The defamation of the M1 Carbine is such a peculiar thing too since everything I've read, the weapon was held in good regard by Marines in the Pacific Theater where it was handy winkling Jap snipers out of palm trees, in jungle fighting and other anecdotal yarns where having a light, high capacity weapon in shorter range firefights was handy.

 

Hell, they even developed an infrared night sight for the thing in World War 2.

 

We can probably thank our favorite gun writers from the 1950s to 1980s who did a good job libeling the M1 Carbine in the usual gun magazines.

[Collimatrix]

.30 carbine was the first US made round to use non-corrosive primers from the get go, and non-corrosive primers are more sensitive to temperature cycling (which is part of why the Russkies love them some corrosive priming compound).  But if that were the problem the gun would simply fail to go "bang."

[Brick Fight]

That's what I thought. 

 

The defamation of the M1 Carbine is such a peculiar thing too since everything I've read, the weapon was held in good regard by Marines in the Pacific Theater where it was handy winkling Jap snipers out of palm trees, in jungle fighting and other anecdotal yarns where having a light, high capacity weapon in shorter range firefights was handy.

 

Hell, they even developed an infrared night sight for the thing in World War 2.

 

We can probably thank our favorite gun writers from the 1950s to 1980s who did a good job libeling the M1 Carbine in the usual gun magazines.

 

It is confusing. The carbine had quite a few advantages in that it meant support personnel, officers, technicians, etc. weren't stuck with pistols, and anyone who needed small, light rifle that could fire 15 rounds from a detachable mag had one. It's kind of the same argument I make for the BAR. Sure, the thing was a giant, heavy mess, but it was one soldier on the field operating on his own who could fire twenty .30-06 rounds when you wanted him to. And he also didn't have to worry about soldiers charging him because he made a pinging noise every time he reloaded.

[Toxn]

What Sturgeon said. 

 

Now there was such a thing as "Carbine Syndrome" where GIs and Marines were less than satisfied with the M1 Carbine and its variants with the weapon being used as a scapegoat to explain away the soldiers' poor performance. No less a figure than General Chesty Puller was critical of the weapon - or more rather the coddling of troops - who only wanted to carry a lightweight weapon rather than having warriors capable of toting around a heavy, full-size battle rifle like the Garand. (I'm paraphrasing that from a biography on Puller that I recently read). 

 

I've been looking at the Medal of Honor page a lot and there were 18 recipients who used a "carbine" in clearing out bunkers, knocking out weapons crews or holding off various attacks. Most of these were officers and NCOs.

 

http://www.history.army.mil/moh/koreanwar.html

 

As Sturgeon said, I feel most of the soldiers either missed or did not have clean center of mass hits. And the "bad guys" have a desire to live and perform their duty too, so instead of flopping dramatically when shot once, the Reds were able to continue moving to cover. Just like numerous Marines and GIs who were shot and able to not succumb immediately to the effects of being shot.

 

I guess there is that story of surplus .30 Carbine ammunition that had been sitting around in the Pacific since World War 2 that was not as effective in the sub-zero temperatures of North Korea. But I'm not qualified to opine on the chemical characteristics of powder. But I can't imagine it making that big of difference.

I've harped on this before, but there is very amusing trend towards ascribing fiendish things to your enemies when they perform actions that in your own men would be seen as heroic. Which is why we always see 'but they were on some sort of drug' being tossed around as an explanation whenever the bad guys look a bit too competent.

 

This goes hand in hand with blaming your equipment and praising the enemy's.

[Donward]

I've harped on this before, but there is very amusing trend towards ascribing fiendish things to your enemies when they perform actions that in your own men would be seen as heroic. Which is why we always see 'but they were on some sort of drug' being tossed around as an explanation whenever the bad guys look a bit too competent.

 

This goes hand in hand with blaming your equipment and praising the enemy's.

 

"But Sarge! The drugs the Enemy are on are far more potent than the drugs that we get!"

 

"Brass don't give a damn about dogfaced junkies like us son. They won't give us the smack we need to WIN this god-fer-saken war".

[Toxn]

"But Sarge! The drugs the Enemy are on are far more potent than the drugs that we get!"

 

"Brass don't give a damn about dogfaced junkies like us son. They won't give us the smack we need to WIN this god-fer-saken war".

When I do speed, it's a harmless pick-me-up that helps me do my job.

 

When you do speed you're a ravaging junkie that uses it to power your sadistic murder sprees.

[Donward]

When I do speed, it's a harmless pick-me-up that helps me do my job.

 

When you do speed you're a ravaging junkie that uses it to power your sadistic murder sprees.

Or in the case of Khande, it is a harmless pick-me-up that helps him do his job of sadistic murder sprees.

[Brick Fight]

Alright, I have to say that although I'm not a big fan of James' videos on TFB, he actually made me laugh quite a few times on this latest one. It's rare to hear Youtube gun guys flat-out admit they don't something (like reloading) or throw such a harsh burn on wackos with the doomsday water carriers. I think retailers need to take an occasional blow for their gouging and pseudo-sales (also fuck Gander). Good stuff.

[Sturgeon]

One of the nice things about TFB is that we have no strings attached preventing us from being totally honest. Now, some of our writers still get the "review giggles" where they feel awed just to have something for review, but we're definitely not paid ad men.

[Sturgeon]

Salvo 3 is live: http://www.gunguyradio.com/190

[Brick Fight]

One of the nice things about TFB is that we have no strings attached preventing us from being totally honest. Now, some of our writers still get the "review giggles" where they feel awed just to have something for review, but we're definitely not paid ad men.

 

It's to be expected. I'm sure if I were to ever get this cooking blog off the ground and Global were to send me a knife or something, I'd be excited and show the necessary gratitude. I'd also use it like any knife and assess it. There just aren't a lot of writers in the industry willing to call bullshit on vendors, because it usually results in the "well he's a businessman, he can price it however he wants!" Well, yeah, but I can call it stupid and point out they're the reason they don't sell anything.

 

My father and I went to Philipsburg (Typical PA shit-hole town) and Clearfield (surprisingly decent PA town) today on a tour of gun stores and found nothing. Even Grice, which advertises as one of the biggest stores in the state, had the exact same lines of overpriced 10/22s and boring hunting rifles as everyone else, just more of it. I just can't really bring myself to go to any more stores after today.

 

On the plus side, I'm now browsing slickguns and it's way too late and ugh.

[Sturgeon]

There are places with amazing gun stores, but you have to know where to look.

The nice thing about TFB is that we have a guy whose job is to brown nose and kiss ass of the companies to get T&E items, which he then passes on to us for review. We can be totally separate from the process of schmoozing with companies, so we can give objective reviews, while also reaping the benefits of doing so. Phil's the man, and he's one of the nicest people I've ever met.

So far, we've done a VERY poor job exploiting this excellent system, though, but it's the plan going forward for TFB to release 3 reviews per week, which if we can manage it will really get us going, I think.

We need to divide the blog into two parts, IMO, a content-based main blog, and a news based sidebar, and then fire all the useless writers and pay all the good writers more so they can focus on bringing the blog great original content. Then hire an intern to filter news and write titles, where the posts themselves are just automated.

[LoooSeR]

OPERATOR-O-METER

79 ChrCstas!

 

[LoooSeR]