The Small Arms Thread, Part 8: 2018; ICSR to be replaced by US Army with interim 15mm Revolver Cannon.

[Belesarius]

There are places with amazing gun stores, but you have to know where to look.

The nice thing about TFB is that we have a guy whose job is to brown nose and kiss ass of the companies to get T&E items, which he then passes on to us for review. We can be totally separate from the process of schmoozing with companies, so we can give objective reviews, while also reaping the benefits of doing so. Phil's the man, and he's one of the nicest people I've ever met.

So far, we've done a VERY poor job exploiting this excellent system, though, but it's the plan going forward for TFB to release 3 reviews per week, which if we can manage it will really get us going, I think.

We need to divide the blog into two parts, IMO, a content-based main blog, and a news based sidebar, and then fire all the useless writers and pay all the good writers more so they can focus on bringing the blog great original content. Then hire an intern to filter news and write titles, where the posts themselves are just automated.

 

I'd love it if TFB went that route.

[Bronezhilet]

Both in Mali (MINUSMA).

 

Dutch commando (KCT) with HK416.

 

Dutch commando with Glock 17.

 

Chinook gunner with MAG and Glock 17.

 

Mossberg M-590

 

Dutch commandos training in Mali with an AI AWM.

 

Dutch ISAF sniper with AI AWM, spotter has a Leica/Vectronix laser range finder.

 

Colt C7NLD

 

Dutch marine with a Colt LOAW with blank firing adapter.

 

Colt C7NLDs

 

Colt C8NLD

 

Dutch soldier with standard Colt C7 in Uruzgan.

 

Minimi.

 

Different perspective of a photo I posted a bit earlier. AGW visible.

 

Mercedez-Benz with AGW.

 

Alright alright, an AGW isn't exactly small arms.

[Collimatrix]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

They'll love that little subgun until they have to field-strip it.

[Donward]

It's to be expected. I'm sure if I were to ever get this cooking blog off the ground and Global were to send me a knife or something, I'd be excited and show the necessary gratitude. I'd also use it like any knife and assess it. There just aren't a lot of writers in the industry willing to call bullshit on vendors, because it usually results in the "well he's a businessman, he can price it however he wants!" Well, yeah, but I can call it stupid and point out they're the reason they don't sell anything.

 

My father and I went to Philipsburg (Typical PA shit-hole town) and Clearfield (surprisingly decent PA town) today on a tour of gun stores and found nothing. Even Grice, which advertises as one of the biggest stores in the state, had the exact same lines of overpriced 10/22s and boring hunting rifles as everyone else, just more of it. I just can't really bring myself to go to any more stores after today.

 

On the plus side, I'm now browsing slickguns and it's way too late and ugh.

 

What are you looking for in a gun store? Exactly or generally?

[Brick Fight]

What are you looking for in a gun store? Exactly or generally?

 

1) Interesting long guns placed out front. Half the stores in our area don't put anything out front at all. This means that the 2 or 3 clerks working are always tied down if anybody wants to look at any gun, and nobody can look at any gun if three of them are talking to their buddy and ignoring the customers. The other half usually just precariously throw indistinguishably similar-looking deer rifles on one or two racks, while everybody's still tying up the clerks by actually trying to see everything else behind the counter.

 

2) Handguns arranged in some kind of sensible organization. My eyes just tend to glaze over when there are two Rugers, one .380 and one 9mm, each with a .45 S&W and a repro SAA between them (Everything facing different directions, too). Arrange by brands, caliber, used, milsurp, revolvers, whatever. It's just easier to decide if I can visually compare price/size/whatever of one 9mm auto next to other ones. If I'm comparing two 1911s, the clerk shouldn't have to be walking all along the counter just to pull a few out.

 

3) Shelf labels placed underneath well-organized ammo. Different boxes print their caliber size. The organization should be a no-brainer. I found PPU .303 150gr flanked by 12 gauge and 6.5 grendel yesterday, while the higher grain .303 was way over with the 54r. None of the shelves were labeled, and ammo boxes were stacked in a way that made half of them impossible to see the caliber written on the box.

 

4) Haggling. The guy I regularly dealt with in C&R was a bit of a fuck, but he always realized I came in with cash and knew what I wanted. I could tell he was desperate to sucker someone into paying $600 for that Enfield I bought, but it was easier to talk him down when I counter-offered with a common retail price with cash in-hand. Just realizing that 3 minutes of talking to me and answering questions meant a few hundred dollars for him meant he was willing to deal. Other gun stores let me look at something that's obviously over-priced, and will not hear a counter-offer, saying "take it or leave it." Well, I guess I'll leave it to sit on your shelf for another two years.

 

5) No politics. This is a no-brainer, but are you such a slave of the 24-hour news cycle that you can't stand to have any paying customer be comfortable, regardless of political affiliation. I know this just sounds like the leftie getting mad, but even my right-leaning father can't stand to hear some angry weirdo at the counter yelling about FEMA death panels (again, tying down a clerk). No other type of store really allows this kind of stuff, and for good reason. Your customers should not be scaring away other customers.

 

6) Little clutter. Why  are there four very similar Ruger Redhawks in the display case in random locations while other guns you only have one of are barely visible beneath a bottom shelf? Why do you have a dozen of the same model and type of a Remington deer rifle all placed in a row with random .22s and ARs placed between them? Why is half of a gun rack hidden behind camo lingerie and Jeff Foxworthy books? I'd imagine product is best placed in a way where it can draw attention, and not clutter the aisle. A customer buying reloading tools shouldn't have to wait for the guy picking out a "Top 10 reasons to go deer hunting" t-shirt to get out of his way.

 

Everyone has different experiences, but I see this kind of stuff enough that I can call them out when someone starts talking about it.

 

 

edit: Watching Hickock45 talking about gun histories makes me sad. Suddenly appreciating John saying "I don't know" in his videos and leaving it at that.

[Sturgeon]

Just got this from RIA today:

 

[Sturgeon]

Part II of a very interesting series:

https://www.full30.com/video/e9819afd7d651b70a96016a58a8e17ea

For how interesting these two videos have been, I can't help that my Shillometer is going off very loudly when I watch them.

 

I think it's really funny that Ian and Karl will sit there and maintain that the MP.44 is just as good as an AKM until they are blue in the face, but then go on to talk about how none of the mags work, the guns are choosy about mags, the mags aren't designed right, the gun's headspace is crude and insane, etc, etc.

But nope, JUST AS GOOD.

Or, the MP.44 is just a shitty first-gen/last-ditch rifle that does technically occupy an important place in history and has been put on a high pedestal by people, most of whom have never even seen one. ]:{

 

EDIT MULTI KILL: The HMG StG is the "StG-47"? Pfffft, yeah right. I would like to see the Germans circa 1947 try to make something like that. The HMG guy even says that the tolerances that gun is using for headspace are way, way tighter than those of the originals. I doubt hardly anyone could make that gun in 1947, besides the Americans.

 

Or, rather, maybe they could make one, but certainly not serial production with a sane rejection rate.

[Donward]

1) Interesting long guns placed out front. Half the stores in our area don't put anything out front at all. This means that the 2 or 3 clerks working are always tied down if anybody wants to look at any gun, and nobody can look at any gun if three of them are talking to their buddy and ignoring the customers. The other half usually just precariously throw indistinguishably similar-looking deer rifles on one or two racks, while everybody's still tying up the clerks by actually trying to see everything else behind the counter.

 

2) Handguns arranged in some kind of sensible organization. My eyes just tend to glaze over when there are two Rugers, one .380 and one 9mm, each with a .45 S&W and a repro SAA between them (Everything facing different directions, too). Arrange by brands, caliber, used, milsurp, revolvers, whatever. It's just easier to decide if I can visually compare price/size/whatever of one 9mm auto next to other ones. If I'm comparing two 1911s, the clerk shouldn't have to be walking all along the counter just to pull a few out.

 

3) Shelf labels placed underneath well-organized ammo. Different boxes print their caliber size. The organization should be a no-brainer. I found PPU .303 150gr flanked by 12 gauge and 6.5 grendel yesterday, while the higher grain .303 was way over with the 54r. None of the shelves were labeled, and ammo boxes were stacked in a way that made half of them impossible to see the caliber written on the box.

 

4) Haggling. The guy I regularly dealt with in C&R was a bit of a fuck, but he always realized I came in with cash and knew what I wanted. I could tell he was desperate to sucker someone into paying $600 for that Enfield I bought, but it was easier to talk him down when I counter-offered with a common retail price with cash in-hand. Just realizing that 3 minutes of talking to me and answering questions meant a few hundred dollars for him meant he was willing to deal. Other gun stores let me look at something that's obviously over-priced, and will not hear a counter-offer, saying "take it or leave it." Well, I guess I'll leave it to sit on your shelf for another two years.

 

5) No politics. This is a no-brainer, but are you such a slave of the 24-hour news cycle that you can't stand to have any paying customer be comfortable, regardless of political affiliation. I know this just sounds like the leftie getting mad, but even my right-leaning father can't stand to hear some angry weirdo at the counter yelling about FEMA death panels (again, tying down a clerk). No other type of store really allows this kind of stuff, and for good reason. Your customers should not be scaring away other customers.

 

6) Little clutter. Why  are there four very similar Ruger Redhawks in the display case in random locations while other guns you only have one of are barely visible beneath a bottom shelf? Why do you have a dozen of the same model and type of a Remington deer rifle all placed in a row with random .22s and ARs placed between them? Why is half of a gun rack hidden behind camo lingerie and Jeff Foxworthy books? I'd imagine product is best placed in a way where it can draw attention, and not clutter the aisle. A customer buying reloading tools shouldn't have to wait for the guy picking out a "Top 10 reasons to go deer hunting" t-shirt to get out of his way.

 

Everyone has different experiences, but I see this kind of stuff enough that I can call them out when someone starts talking about it.

 

 

edit: Watching Hickock45 talking about gun histories makes me sad. Suddenly appreciating John saying "I don't know" in his videos and leaving it at that.

 

My ideal gun shop will have rows of used long guns ready for the browsing out in the general public area. Obviously if there is a $13,000 over-under or the latest-and-greatest Eurotrash assault rifle, it'll be behind the counter.

 

Fortunately, I think the days of the asshole gun shop owner are slowly fading away. There are plenty of options out there and money talks or walks. One of the more infamous shops in my area, a place called "Butch's Gun Shop" on Seattle's notorious Aurora Avenue I believe has gone out of business. You'd walk in the door and the guys behind the counter would seem generally pissed off that you were there. Good luck getting any customer services.

 

I have noticed a lot of the "new" gun shops being opened by former military types are usually staffed by friendly, earnest individuals. Sadly these same shops cater to the Tacti-cool crowd since the military guys are usually only interested in or familiar with assault rifles.

 

Most of the time, I usually get some sort of customer service when I show up to a place. But then again I'm a 30-something white male who is right in the wheelhouse of the likely buyer. My wife got royally pissed a few weeks ago when she was completely ignored at a warehouse store when she was a motivated buyer for a handgun.

 

I don't mind a little clutter or disorganization. I like being able to hunt for a good deal and finding a gem hidden among crap. But yeah, handguns should be organized by semi-auto, revolver, or whatnot. I get annoyed walking into a shop and it has literally the same grey-ish horizontal paneling behind the gun racks that is in literally every other gun show.

 

As for dealing with guys shooting the shit with the clerks, that is going to happen. I guess the trick is to find a good shop, develop a relationship with the owners and become one of the guys who shoots the shit with the clerks.

[Sturgeon]

Oh yes, this is happening:

 

[Sturgeon]

TWC will begin posting some GREAT shit from now on:

[Donward]

Oh yes, this is happening:

 

Awesome! Katie A is doing another post regurgitating something from Forgotten Weapons!!!

 

Just what I wanted to read.

[Tied]

[Alex C.]

Paging Mr. Khand-E, Mr. Khand-E to the front please:

 

 

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=525495148

 

 

 

This may be the only 5.56 type 81 in the world.

I know they were imported for approximately 1 month before the 1989 EO banning them (and know of only 4 total in the USA in civilian hands).

[Brick Fight]

I need to get a job that actually lets me afford all of this shit. I keep having to put major purchases off for another month or longer for every little unexpected charge that comes up.

[Alex C.]

I would bet that Larry Vicekrs makes a play on that gun. Allegedly he really likes the type 81 (he has one in 7.62x39).

[Sturgeon]

1) Interesting long guns placed out front. Half the stores in our area don't put anything out front at all. This means that the 2 or 3 clerks working are always tied down if anybody wants to look at any gun, and nobody can look at any gun if three of them are talking to their buddy and ignoring the customers. The other half usually just precariously throw indistinguishably similar-looking deer rifles on one or two racks, while everybody's still tying up the clerks by actually trying to see everything else behind the counter.

 

You tend to see this kind of thing in stores that are overly (or in some cases, rightly) concerned with theft. Certainly, however, the best shopping experience is had in stores with racks of the less-valuable stuff out on the floor, not behind the counter.

 

2) Handguns arranged in some kind of sensible organization. My eyes just tend to glaze over when there are two Rugers, one .380 and one 9mm, each with a .45 S&W and a repro SAA between them (Everything facing different directions, too). Arrange by brands, caliber, used, milsurp, revolvers, whatever. It's just easier to decide if I can visually compare price/size/whatever of one 9mm auto next to other ones. If I'm comparing two 1911s, the clerk shouldn't have to be walking all along the counter just to pull a few out.

 

Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaah, this.

 

3) Shelf labels placed underneath well-organized ammo. Different boxes print their caliber size. The organization should be a no-brainer. I found PPU .303 150gr flanked by 12 gauge and 6.5 grendel yesterday, while the higher grain .303 was way over with the 54r. None of the shelves were labeled, and ammo boxes were stacked in a way that made half of them impossible to see the caliber written on the box.

 

They should fire their employees. No excuse for the ammo shelves to not be properly organized.

 

4) Haggling. The guy I regularly dealt with in C&R was a bit of a fuck, but he always realized I came in with cash and knew what I wanted. I could tell he was desperate to sucker someone into paying $600 for that Enfield I bought, but it was easier to talk him down when I counter-offered with a common retail price with cash in-hand. Just realizing that 3 minutes of talking to me and answering questions meant a few hundred dollars for him meant he was willing to deal. Other gun stores let me look at something that's obviously over-priced, and will not hear a counter-offer, saying "take it or leave it." Well, I guess I'll leave it to sit on your shelf for another two years.

Depends on the shop. If it's one guy, or a few guys who all really trust each other, haggling will probably be something they can do. If it's a store with a lot of minimum wage employees who are working over the summer, not a chance. You'd get fired for haggling, pronto.

 

5) No politics. This is a no-brainer, but are you such a slave of the 24-hour news cycle that you can't stand to have any paying customer be comfortable, regardless of political affiliation. I know this just sounds like the leftie getting mad, but even my right-leaning father can't stand to hear some angry weirdo at the counter yelling about FEMA death panels (again, tying down a clerk). No other type of store really allows this kind of stuff, and for good reason. Your customers should not be scaring away other customers.

 

Chalk that up to management not removing their head from their ass. Like you say, this should be a no-brainer. You don't see restaurants, car dealerships, and other kinds of stores being blatantly and insanely political, and gun stores shouldn't be, either.

 

6) Little clutter. Why  are there four very similar Ruger Redhawks in the display case in random locations while other guns you only have one of are barely visible beneath a bottom shelf? Why do you have a dozen of the same model and type of a Remington deer rifle all placed in a row with random .22s and ARs placed between them? Why is half of a gun rack hidden behind camo lingerie and Jeff Foxworthy books? I'd imagine product is best placed in a way where it can draw attention, and not clutter the aisle. A customer buying reloading tools shouldn't have to wait for the guy picking out a "Top 10 reasons to go deer hunting" t-shirt to get out of his way.

 

Two most probable possibilities: 1, they really like Redhawks and deer rifles, 2, those are what sell, and it's more convenient than always having to get another gun from the back.

Except really, they should get a gun from the back literally every time a gun is sold, because having empty spots on the rack looks bad.

 

edit: Watching Hickock45 talking about gun histories makes me sad. Suddenly appreciating John saying "I don't know" in his videos and leaving it at that.

 

My advice: Don't watch Hickok, Nutnfancy, IV8888, Whatshisname & Erika, MattV2099...

[Khand-e]

Paging Mr. Khand-E, Mr. Khand-E to the front please:

 

 

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=525495148

 

 

 

This may be the only 5.56 type 81 in the world.

I know they were imported for approximately 1 month before the 1989 EO banning them (and know of only 4 total in the USA in civilian hands).

 

Oh my fucking god......

 

I'm going to wait a few days though, no reason to drive up the price this early.

[Tied]

[Toxn]

I love his idea of "testing" the piece. And the idea that the cops will be too stupid to simply put two and two together (dead person in your house, you surrounded by plumbing parts) and not arrest you, gather the pieces and swab you for residue.

 

Ah well, caveat emptor and all that.

[Brick Fight]

You tend to see this kind of thing in stores that are overly (or in some cases, rightly) concerned with theft. Certainly, however, the best shopping experience is had in stores with racks of the less-valuable stuff out on the floor, not behind the counter.

 

Depends on the shop. If it's one guy, or a few guys who all really trust each other, haggling will probably be something they can do. If it's a store with a lot of minimum wage employees who are working over the summer, not a chance. You'd get fired for haggling, pronto.

 

Two most probable possibilities: 1, they really like Redhawks and deer rifles, 2, those are what sell, and it's more convenient than always having to get another gun from the back.

Except really, they should get a gun from the back literally every time a gun is sold, because having empty spots on the rack looks bad.

 

 

My advice: Don't watch Hickok, Nutnfancy, IV8888, Whatshisname & Erika, MattV2099...

 

In the top cases, I'm sure you know I make exceptions for certain conditions, but I do get your point. One place I went to was huge, and they had at least a few hundred rifles on display that you could pick up and sample. Unfortunately, it was a bit cramped in the store, and I'm sure they could have taken out a hundred of the deer rifles and 10/22s to remove a rack and give more space or something. I felt I should clarify that since I was pretty vague about it.

 

I like Hickock because his guns go bang real loud and you can hear and see the targets, but his research seems to be random gun forum posts. I usually use the timeline preview to skip to when he's just shooting the stuff to see what it's like when the gun shoots. Nutnfancy's gun videos are bleh but his specialty seems to be around knives, and his videos have helped me buy stuff for my dad (who is a huge discerning knife guy). IV8888 is definitely bad, and I've never heard of the others. I've watched a lot of these and haven't enjoyed them, which hopefully speaks to TFB and Forgotten Weapons that they're the only channels I can watch.

[Sturgeon]

Jeff Quitney (historical videos, many firearms related), Cody's Lab (teenager who makes his own blackpowder from raw materials), The Wound Channel (random shooting/fucking around), Taofledermaus (really nice guy makes improvised/homemade shotgun loads, shoot gummy bears, fucks around with mercury), Demolition Ranch (I don't think his gun channel is too special, but he's also a vet/vet tech who uses the proceeds from his channels to save dogs and other animals) Rifle Dynamics (Jim Fuller's channel, he rivals Marc Krebs for AK knowledge), British Pathe (historical newsreels, etc,many of which are gun related), Afrermath Gun Club (obscure tactical shit, also nice people I know personally), AK Operator's Union (good AK info, I'm worried they're starting to go the way of the big names), faliaphotography (a lady who does pretty good gun reviews without the TnA), Fieldsports Channel (firearms and sport shooting in Britain and former Empire, a really refreshing and funny channel more geared towards hunters), Funker530 (combat footage), Grigory Rhein (very new channel, has uploaded some shooting vids of Russian small arms), GunsGearnGrub (Israeli shooter, covers obscure shit, hasn't uploaded in a while), INSTMILTECH (Reed Knight's channel), LifeSizePotato (Great reviews of obscure/weird handguns), murpheysmuskets (blackpowder, he seems pretty new), NFMCurator (NRA's National Firearms Museum's channel), ozziereviews (Aussie gun reviews), The Ammo Channel (ammo testing), troubleshooterBerlin (gun design theory from Berlin, personal friend of mine).

Also everything everyone else said.

 

This may help you to diversify your gun watching.

 

tagging this post with youtube channel

[Sturgeon]

C&Rsenal is probably my favorite. Perfect fusion of history and firearms, and Othais does an incredible job.

 

 

I find "britishmuzzleloaders"- https://www.youtube.com/user/britishmuzzleloadersto be interesting,  and "Cap and Ball"/ "Classic Firearms" - https://www.youtube.com/user/capandball/videos is a decent one.

 

Also these.

 

tagging this post with youtube channel

[Brick Fight]

I'll give them a look.

[Bronezhilet]

And whatever you do, stay away from Royal Nonesuch the Royal Moron. Unless you like watching people desperately trying to get themselves killed.

 

Also, I've been wanting to send my plate carrier + plates to Demolition Ranch for him to see if it does really stop .50 BMG ball as people claim, but I haven't been able to find a suitable replacement. Plates are LIBA made by TenCate, and I think it's the same material as the shield the French used to enter the Bataclan.

[Sturgeon]

The impossible has happened: The CMP is now allowed to sell 1911s to the American public:

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/11/25/breaking-news-it-is-now-law-the-cmp-can-sell-1911s-to-the-public-a-thanksgiving-day-miracle/

I am not often patriotic, but holy shit what a time to be an American, when your government will trust you enough to sell you handguns straight from the warehouse!