The Small Arms Thread, Part 8: 2018; ICSR to be replaced by US Army with interim 15mm Revolver Cannon.

[Sturgeon]

Ok, enough fucking politcal faggotry in my thread, this is what, the 10th time I've had to say this? go to a different fucking thread, all of you to talk about this shit. fuck.

 

I have decided to shift the subject to tactics instead of politics, OK?

[Donward]

Yeah, I just got another .357 too, the difference it's in a much better design then a relic of the past revolver which are only better when large rounds for defense against medium-large dangerous animals are concerned.

 

 

Dealwithit.gif.

 

And, this is the part where I say it's a 1911A1 and Colli gets hyper triggered and lectures me on how it's far more similar to a Hi Power on the inside.

 

.....But we all love triggering Colli, so just to do that, "MODERNIZED RECHAMBERED 1911A1!"

 

That is a wonderful handgun. That is a beautiful handgun. It is the kind of handgun to grace magazine covers and to set little boys from the age of 9 to 109 dreaming at night.

 

It is also kind of a big and bulky handgun. The Coonan .357 weighs in at 42 ounces unloaded. The Compact is a svelte 39 ounces. But on the other hand it is 7.7 inches long and 5.5 inches tall. Not bad.

 

Do you carry it every day? Every single day. No days off? If so, that weight isn't an issue and with a proper holster you just learn to deal with it.

 

Unfortunately with my lifestyle, I am unable to realistically carry a weapon of that size everywhere I go. Otherwise, fuck man, I'd just carry my Beretta 92F with 15 rounds in an easily reloaded magazine as my everyday carry. I may be a fudd, but I'm not an idiot.

 

And that's where realistic compromises come into play. My Ruger SP101 is about 25 ounces in weight unloaded and given the shape of being a revolver, is a bit easier to conceal and doesn't print as much (not that printing is that big of a concern) and with the way I carry it (inside the waistband, with my shirt partially untucked, or my coat covering it) no one can see it. It's stainless steel, has some shitty no-nonsense rubber grips that I haven't bothered to upgrade and I paid just over $400 for it used so I'm not worried about scuffing it up if I have to crawl under my car wearing it.

 

Finally, as utterly reliable as well-made semi-autos are today, this revolver is more so. I've gone over that list before. But to add one more, I'll bring up two of the most famous (and infamous) recent cases of a pistol being used in a self defense situation. Semi-autos were used in the Treyvon Martin shooting and the Ferguson shooting. The former was a KelTec and the Ferguson police officer was using a Sig 229. In both cases, the shooters were grappling with their assailants. In the Treyvon Martin situation, the Keltec jammed after one shot because 1) KelTec and 2) I believe the gun was unable to cycle because Martin was on top of and beating the shit out of Fatboy. In this case, one shot was all that was needed. However, if more rounds were needed, Fatboy would have been SOL.

 

In terms of the Ferguson shooting, Michael Brown was assaulting Officer Wilson in his patrol car and both were grappling with Wilson's handgun which went out of battery. In his testimony, Officer Wilson says he pulled the trigger multiple times, hearing the gun go "click, click, click" before finally he had enough wherewithal to gain full control of his weapon and fire a round which struck Brown's thumb inside the patrol car.

 

The point?

 

I have no illusions that self defense scenarios can be mean, up close and dirty things where a lot of times the assailant will be in grappling distance where they might be trying to take your handgun from you. A snubnose revolver in that situation is a better weapon in that the user can maintain control of the weapon easier because the leverage of holding the grip on a snubby is easier than that exerted on an attacker prying away on the barrel. Also, a revolver is less likely to go out of battery in that scenario since the attacker will have to exert enough force on the cylinder to stop it from rotating or have enough awareness to get part of his hand in between the hammer of the revolver before it drops. And if it's a hammerless revolver, even this won't happen.

 

So yes, semi-autos are wonderful and better in every single way than a revolver. Except in some of the real life situations that I outlined. And that's why folks still carry these archaic, 140 year old SA/DO designs with five or six shots.

[Sturgeon]

Nothing wrong with carrying a snubby revolver, I say. Slightly different strengths and weaknesses.

You get into full-size guns, though, and revolvers become much less attractive.

[Khand-e]

To be fair, I was going to write about that post, but there's some rather politicized elements in it I don't agree with in his post and I'm not going to be a hypocrite in my own thread so I just let it be.

 

That being said, the point was that the Coonan is fucking incredible for whatever you plan to use it for, and shows that soon, even with the "smaller" pistol magnum calibers (small being relative, compared to monstrous cartridges like the .454 Casull or it's bigger brother, the .460 S&W Magnum, and other large rounds like the .480 riger, 475 Linebaugh, etc. you get the point.) revolvers are being outdone by the semi auto master race.

 

For the record, I mostly just use the Coonan for recreational shooting, I actually carry a Walther PPQ M2 5" in .40 S&W (During post christmas, I got really good deals for trade ins, and while I was a bit annoyed about the lower mag capacity and really did like my G22, the Walther has fit my hand better then any pistol I've ever used) and I have a 5906 for if I need something a bit smaller dimension wise. My wife carries a FiveSeven Mk2 for christ's sake which is unbelieveably light, and because it holds so many rounds she only carries 1 loaded 30 round and a backup 20 round, and that's ONLY because her holster happens to have a spare magainze pouch, otherwise she wouldn't bother. And while some online dipshits who have never seen a firefight may laugh at the "SCHV POODLESHOOTER ROUND HURR DURR",  Something tells me any mugger isn't going ot find it too funny when multiple rounds from it strike them dead on in the vitals.
 

I'm not quite sure what it is though.

[Donward]

Nothing wrong with carrying a snubby revolver, I say. Slightly different strengths and weaknesses.

You get into full-size guns, though, and revolvers become much less attractive.

I agree.

 

If you get anything larger than a K frame revolver in .357 Magnum with a 3-4 inch barrel, you're doing it wrong and should be carrying a semi-auto.

 

There are probably two types of revolver guys that are probably getting your goat. The first are the types who feel that a Colt SAA (or its Ruger clones) is still a viable firearm instead of just being a fun curio. This is despite the Peacemaker being a terrible design even for 1873 and its only saving grace was that it was relatively cheap, reliable and had a strong frame capable of holding up to the powerful .45 Colt round. The manual of arms for the 1873 Colt is terrible and the malfunctions that you can get from it like - say - having a hangfire and rotating the cylinder can induce nightmares.

 

The other are the redonkulous Magnum guys who buy handguns the size of pipe wrenches chambered in ridiculous calibers like .460 or .500 S&W or - worse - get snubby versions of those calibers. And then they handload hot rounds and wonder why their handgun blows up like a pipe bomb or falls apart after 200 rounds.

 

To be fair, I was going to write about that post, but there's some rather politicized elements in it I don't agree with in his post and I'm not going to be a hypocrite in my own thread so I just let it be.

 

That being said, the point was that the Coonan is fucking incredible for whatever you plan to use it for, and shows that soon, even with the "smaller" pistol magnum calibers (small being relative, compared to monstrous cartridges like the .454 Casull or it's bigger brother, the .460 S&W Magnum, and other large rounds like the .480 riger, 475 Linebaugh, etc. you get the point.)

 

For the record, I mostly just use the Coonan for recreational shooting, I actually carry a Walther PPQ M2 5" in .40 S&W (During post christmas, I got really good deals for trade ins, and while I was a bit annoyed about the lower mag capacity and really did like my G22, the Walther has fit my hand better then any pistol I've ever used) and I have a 5906 for if I need something a bit smaller dimension wise. My wife carries a FiveSeven Mk2 for christ's sake which is unbelieveably light, and because it holds so many rounds she only carries 1 loaded 30 round and a backup 20 round, and that's ONLY because her holster happens to have a spare magainze pouch, otherwise she wouldn't bother. And while some online dipshits who have never seen a firefight may laugh at the "SCHV POODLESHOOTER ROUND HURR DURR",  Something tells me any mugger isn't going ot find it too funny when multiple rounds from it strike them dead on in the vitals.

 

I'm not quite sure what it is though.

 

I'm not Massad Ayoob who has compiled every instance of self-defense scenarios with weapons for 90 years and can recite them on demand. I chose those two since they were immediately in my memory and yes, I don't want to talk about the political implications of those two shootings.

 

With the revolution of self defense handgun rounds and the good job gun companies have done putting out small and concealable handguns firing robust rounds that are reliable, snubnose revolvers are actually on the cusp of now being functionally obsolete. Hell, I'll admit that. I've certainly seen it in the ten years since I've bought my .357. I'm seeing handguns on the market in 9mm that are smaller than my still rather chunky SP101 which hold more rounds. And there are micro .380s that are smaller than cellphones. which hold more rounds. 

 

As for the 5.7mm, hell yeah. More of it. I can't wait until ammo availability becomes more accessible. Coonan is also fucking awesome. I agree.

[Sturgeon]

Nah, nah, nah, nah, it's ME who gets revolver people's goats, not the other way around.

Or were you talking about that very first rom-com style argument we had years ago?

[Khand-e]

Well many semi auto handguns are striker fired these days, striker fired master race beats hammer fired or "hammerless revolver" under race.

 

By extension, I am meta as fuck.

[Donward]

Nah, nah, nah, nah, it's ME who gets revolver people's goats, not the other way around.

Or were you talking about that very first rom-com style argument we had years ago?

 

Nah. Nah. This isn't .30-30 lever action master race versus SKScum debate.

As for revolvers, I still think there are niche areas where they are equal to or excel over semis. Those niche areas are shrinking every day and the only thing saving the day is the .357 Magnum round. Although I am super interested these days in 6-7-8 round .327 magnum revolvers.

 

 

Well many semi auto handguns are striker fired these days, striker fired master race beats hammer fired or "hammerless revolver" under race.

 

By extension, I am meta as fuck.

 

90-98 percent of the time you are correct. Still doesn't mean I won't fight and scrap over that final 2 to 10 percent.

[Khand-e]

I used to own an 8 shot .257 revolver (the S&W 327, not the shitty Taurus one), but I recanted from my erronous ways.

 

Also, I still really wish Coonan would make a .327 Federal Magnum offering. (COONAN INC, SURELY YOU'RE READING THIS BOARD BY NOW, WHERE IS IT?)

[Tied]

Me personally firefight with pistol cartridge is all about capacity and volume of fire. Which is why revovlers are a no go for me atleast for first choice

But they are sexy and fun to shoot

[Meplat]

They're one of the few firearms whose guts interest me. I find the rate-reducer and extraction especially neat. If I owned one, I'd probably be tearing it apart all the time.

A great deal of the rate reduction comes from it's very overlong slide travel. On semi, you really notice this. It feels very odd to have the slide almost come to a very cushioned stop before feeding the next round.

[Toxn]

Fine, we'll go with "that TIME magazine article triggered me hard".

Re: Exception. Whether I'm an exception or not isn't the point. The point is that I, and many other people, actually do feel safer in areas with high legal firearms ownership, risks associated with that and all.

Re: Hoax or not, MS-13 is very real, and actually does behead people. Houston is not that far from the Texas border, and what's going on down there is pretty barbaric. When I lived in Houston, MS-13 was not some phantom bogeyman that kept me up at night, they were my next-door neighbors. They literally lived right across the highway to me. I encountered them on a regular basis. So what should I, a 19-year-old kid living on my own, have done, exactly? Arming myself to the teeth doesn't seem like a terrible idea, even in retrospect.

Re: Cubbyhole? It's Texas, dude, the pistol sat in my passenger's seat, or in a holster below my dash. It wasn't difficult to drive the car and draw it at the same time. I know, because I had to do it once.

Re: Shooting your way out of an ambush. What better choice is there? It's not like you're backed up by the National Guard all the time. I suppose you can criticize my thinking at the time as being overly focused on unlikely scenarios, but that doesn't mean https://m.facebook.com/notes/ebmas-new-york-city-ebmasnyc/f-you-and-your-high-powered-rifle-the-gary-fadden-incident-the-ayoob-files-by-ma/442345242465193/'>the scenario we're talking about is unrealistic.

Every gun owner should be aware of the risks of owning a gun, of course... But those risks have more to do with training and mindset than they do the guns themselves. To hear some people talk about it, just owning a gun puts you at risk. That's not true, though, owning and shooting guns is one of the safest things you can do. The people saying these things are taking suicide statistics and chalking them up next to murder statistics and going "hurr durr, guns make you less safe", but that ignores the mindset problem.

All good points

What Time magazine article was this? I stopped even looking at the covers around 2008.

[Sturgeon]

This one: http://time.com/4172274/what-its-like-to-own-guns-in-a-country-with-strict-gun-control/?utm_content=bufferfecf0&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer

[Toxn]

This one: http://time.com/4172274/what-its-like-to-own-guns-in-a-country-with-strict-gun-control/?utm_content=bufferfecf0&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer'>http://time.com/4172274/what-its-like-to-own-guns-in-a-country-with-strict-gun-control/?utm_content=bufferfecf0&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer

Oh the Australian one.

Eh, as I said: part of it seems to be how you view your fellow citizens. Did it trigger you because of that dude's views or because Australia has become some sort of weird selling point for the other side of the debate?

As an aside, and because I've articulated the view of firearms as more of a hobby than anything else, I am extremely upset that the powers that be seem so intent on following the American model of drone control. Because of how it knocks on to remote control aircraft, my son probably won't be able to make and fly model planes like I did.

[Meplat]

This one: http://time.com/4172274/what-its-like-to-own-guns-in-a-country-with-strict-gun-control/?utm_content=bufferfecf0&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer

What a ridiculous piece of propaganda.

[Brick Fight]

I tend to keep my mouth shut since I know that probably all of my political views are counter to the general opinions around here, but it bothers me that it's easy for anyone to get a gun in many places. I'm not in support of any substantial bans, but making it easy for the average jackoff to just go and get one when they please bothers me. My aunt recently purchased a gun, and that scares the hell out of me for lots of reasons like the fact that she's so terrible at raising dogs that they bite everyone and she regularly injures herself due to the neglect that are the garbage piles that are her houses. She's gonna keep that thing loaded or something and best case scenario it goes off without hitting anyone.

 

I've met people that don't do their yearly taxes because it's too much work (and they'd end up coming out ahead by paying someone like $30 to do it for them). Imagine the amount of dumb-dumbs we'd weed out just by requiring at least a short safety course.

[Sturgeon]

I tend to keep my mouth shut since I know that probably all of my political views are counter to the general opinions around here, but it bothers me that it's easy for anyone to get a gun in many places. I'm not in support of any substantial bans, but making it easy for the average jackoff to just go and get one when they please bothers me. My aunt recently purchased a gun, and that scares the hell out of me for lots of reasons like the fact that she's so terrible at raising dogs that they bite everyone and she regularly injures herself due to the neglect that are the garbage piles that are her houses. She's gonna keep that thing loaded or something and best case scenario it goes off without hitting anyone.

I've met people that don't do their yearly taxes because it's too much work (and they'd end up coming out ahead by paying someone like $30 to do it for them). Imagine the amount of dumb-dumbs we'd weed out just by requiring at least a short safety course.

Just about nobody's got a problem with the concept of safety courses (hell, as evidence of this, consider that virtually all gun safety courses are taught by gun people), it's the idea that the government would have a record of gun owners that they could then use as part of a confiscation program.

...Which is a concern that amuses me because that's basically what 4473s are. Oh sure, the ATF is supposed to destroy them after two weeks... But do you trust them?

There's also the concern that good people who needs guns RIGHT NOW won't be able to get them. See the example above.

Overall, suffering the idiots in the gun world doesn't seem to be anywhere near as big of a problem as suffering idiots in the car world. Guns just don't get brought out often enough to be as big a risk for those people.

[Meplat]

I tend to keep my mouth shut since I know that probably all of my political views are counter to the general opinions around here, but it bothers me that it's easy for anyone to get a gun in many places. I'm not in support of any substantial bans, but making it easy for the average jackoff to just go and get one when they please bothers me. My aunt recently purchased a gun, and that scares the hell out of me for lots of reasons like the fact that she's so terrible at raising dogs that they bite everyone and she regularly injures herself due to the neglect that are the garbage piles that are her houses. She's gonna keep that thing loaded or something and best case scenario it goes off without hitting anyone.

 

I've met people that don't do their yearly taxes because it's too much work (and they'd end up coming out ahead by paying someone like $30 to do it for them). Imagine the amount of dumb-dumbs we'd weed out just by requiring at least a short safety course.

It bothers me that it's easy for anyone to get a framing hammer and make a dangerously ramshackle treehouse, or for anyone to do their own tire and brake work on their cars resulting in all kinds of "interesting" fixes, but you don't see me fretting over these to the extent you are over the availability of another equally inanimate object..

 

You stand a better chance of being struck by lightning, or drowning in a bucket of dirty rainwater.  Hell, a slip and fall in a bathtub is a greater risk to you than your auntie's pistola.

 

Quit giving yourself an ulcer.

[Sturgeon]

2013 - Cause of death - Accidental discharge of firearms - All Races - Both Sexes - 505

 

I concur with Meplat.

[Priory_of_Sion]

From BJS

 

People buying guns from stores, gun shows, etc. don't seem to be the bad guys. 

 

Ending the War on Drugs would cut down on the "Drug dealer/off street" category. 

 

I'd imagine safety courses would emphasize to not let your idiot cousin/buddy borrow your gun. 

[Donward]

So essentially strawman purchases by the "girlfriend" or some similar source along with the the black market account for 3/4s of the numbers.

[Priory_of_Sion]

So essentially strawman purchases by the "girlfriend" or some similar source along with the the black market account for 3/4s of the numbers.

You know we HAVE to stop those gun shows though that account for <1% of criminal gun purchases! 

[Donward]

You know we HAVE to stop those gun shows though that account for <1% of criminal gun purchases! 

I'm wondering what the "other" is which comprises 8 to 11 percent. 

[Belesarius]

From a MZW FB thingie about something or the other.  But our favorite firearms company came up, and I found it amusing.

 

1 hr

Terence Nelan AR-47. LOL.

Like · Reply · 2 · 1 hr

Michael Williamson It could be the ARAK

Like · Reply · 1 · 1 hr

Terence Nelan A guy at my range had one of those, but he never could get it to cycle. Cool looking though.

Like · Reply · 1 · 1 hr

[Belesarius]

I'm wondering what the "other" is which comprises 8 to 11 percent. 

Me too.

 

Interesting numbers.  Might post that to FB to start a discussion.