The Small Arms Thread, Part 8: 2018; ICSR to be replaced by US Army with interim 15mm Revolver Cannon.

[Priory_of_Sion]

Here is the actual BJS document. I don't think it ever covers what that "other" is. Lots of data in there. 

[Sturgeon]

I tend to keep my mouth shut since I know that probably all of my political views are counter to the general opinions around here, but it bothers me that it's easy for anyone to get a gun in many places. I'm not in support of any substantial bans, but making it easy for the average jackoff to just go and get one when they please bothers me. My aunt recently purchased a gun, and that scares the hell out of me for lots of reasons like the fact that she's so terrible at raising dogs that they bite everyone and she regularly injures herself due to the neglect that are the garbage piles that are her houses. She's gonna keep that thing loaded or something and best case scenario it goes off without hitting anyone.

 

I've met people that don't do their yearly taxes because it's too much work (and they'd end up coming out ahead by paying someone like $30 to do it for them). Imagine the amount of dumb-dumbs we'd weed out just by requiring at least a short safety course.

 

Replicating this here, since you inspired it, Brick Fight:

 

A friend of mine recently wrote to me that he felt mandatory gun safety courses as a prerequisite to firearms ownership would be a beneficial modification to make to existing gun law. He felt that this would have as a consequence many people who should not have firearms not purchasing them, because they are too lazy to attend the course.

To someone with a certain type of perspective, this, and other policies, seem like a great idea. I've heard and read countless times advocacy for guns to have titles just like automobiles, or for a license to be a pre-requisite for gun ownership. I don't wish to delve into the politics of whether these are good or bad ideas, but to delineate a difference of perspective between these people, and people like myself.

What these policies - and the absolute rejection of them by the opposing political camp - say about the treatment of firearms is that there are some who view firearms as a luxury, like automobiles, computers, and telephones, and some who view them as a necessity, like food, water, and shelter. More precisely, this latter camp sees firearms as the most appropriate tool for providing for the defense of one's self, which they view as essential for living.

To the camp who sees firearms as a luxury, licensing, titling, and training laws make perfect sense. Since from this perspective, firearms are not necessary for one to make a livelihood and they are potentially dangerous in the wrong hands, it's the duty of the government (which, constutionally, is supposed to promote the welfare of its citizens) to ensure that only the people can use them safely should have them.

Naturally, this attitude is outrageous to the latter camp. To them, licensing the citizens' possession of firearms is the same as licensing any of the other basic essentials, and only a corrupt, evil government would do such a thing. Consider that any American would view a government that forced its citizens to get a license before they could buy red meat - because red meat can cause heart attacks and is therefore dangerous - as a hopeless totalitarian tyrrany. We simply don't do that sort of thing here in America, that is why we consider it to be a free country. Licensing or other mandatory prerequisites for gun ownership would necessarily result in some individuals being deprived of a necessity, whether that is because they cannot afford it, do not have time to complete it, or were rejected during the process.

Which perspective is right? That's not the purpose of my writing here. Instead, I hope that if people of either perspective can recognize the other (or as the case may be, realize their own perspective), they can talk with each other more productively.

[Meplat]

A closer example to the disgust some of us have-

 

"You need a license to buy a book. Any book the government finds to not meet it's criteria for public consumption, you need to pay a tax on, and allow the government to inspect your bookshelf at a moment's notice. If you are found in possession of a book the government finds offensive, without having paid the proper taxes and licensing fees, you will be subject to a fine and prison time."

 

That is a fair summation as to how absurd I find the vast majority of firearms laws to be.

[Donward]

And government agencies have historically been less than user friendly when it has come to any sort of licensing or permitting process as anyone who has gone to the DMV or tried to get a building permit can tell you.

I've shared the story before elsewhere but my dad tried to get a concealed weapons license once upon a time in the late 1970s (I believe). The clerks/deputies at the Seattle PD (or maybe it was the King County Sheriffs Office) looked him up and down and told him to get the fuck out.

Fortunately Washington is now a Shall Issue instead of a May Issue state now.

[Brick Fight]

A closer example to the disgust some of us have-

 

"You need a license to buy a book. Any book the government finds to not meet it's criteria for public consumption, you need to pay a tax on, and allow the government to inspect your bookshelf at a moment's notice. If you are found in possession of a book the government finds offensive, without having paid the proper taxes and licensing fees, you will be subject to a fine and prison time."

 

That is a fair summation as to how absurd I find the vast majority of firearms laws to be.

 

I'm sorry, but that argument is as weak to me as mine was to you. I'm not going to take arguments like books/red meat the same, as they are fundamentally different from what is created as an intended weapon. My concern is that at the current rate, we will only get more gun control whether we like it or not, so the gun community and lobbyists are going to have to think really hard about what their arguments are going to be further down the road.

 

Working in food, I've seen states and countries ban food here because the fervent sanctimommies hear "something something microbes" about say, certain types of cheese, that it gets banned due to apathy and misinformation. Now making certain types of artisinal breads, cheeses, and meats are straight-up illegal due to lobbying and lack of any sort of strong "pro-food" base. Guns are not out of the equation. The problem with arguing gun control is that there is more of a passion now against them than ever, while at most other times it was indifference, with exceptions perhaps in the prohibition era. There are people actively rooting against gun ownership, and the apathetic types who live just fine without a gun, so we're going to need something besides "guns are a right, no dice" because there are people that are just not going to be convinced.

[Donward]

From the political perspective, the whole issue of gun control seems like such a losing issue for the Democrats and it has been for twenty years that I am astounded why they keep running with it. The 1994 Republican Revolution was a large part due to the Brady Bill/Assault Weapons ban. Algore losing his home state of Tennessee in the 2000 election was entirely due to his support of gun control. The fact that the majority of governors, state legislatures and now the US Senate and House of Representatives are in the hands of the GOP is in great part due to the perception that Obama wants to take away our guns. 

 

I really honestly don't get the political upside when there are Democrats who are gun owners and - fuck - the guy who I think will actually be the next Presidential nominee for the Democrats Bernie Sanders is somewhat pro-gun despite being a raving Socialist who looks like he eats his own scabs. 

[Sturgeon]

I'm sorry, but that argument is as weak to me as mine was to you. I'm not going to take arguments like books/red meat the same, as they are fundamentally different from what is created as an intended weapon. My concern is that at the current rate, we will only get more gun control whether we like it or not, so the gun community and lobbyists are going to have to think really hard about what their arguments are going to be further down the road.

 

...Why do you think we can only get more gun control? Overall, the pro-gun side is winning, not losing.

The whole point of my post was to try to make a connection between the two perspectives on this issue. When you say: "I'm not going to take arguments like books/red meat the same, as they are fundamentally different from what is created as an intended weapon.", that doesn't seem to be getting the point, which is that the other side does see them that way. They see self-defense as essential to a livelihood (just like food), and an armed populace as essential to a functioning society (just like free speech). If you see guns as a potentially dangerous privilege, then fine, but don't try to use arguments that rely on that premise on the other side. 

[Brick Fight]

...Why do you think we can only get more gun control? Overall, the pro-gun side is winning, not losing.

The whole point of my post was to try to make a connection between the two perspectives on this issue. When you say: "I'm not going to take arguments like books/red meat the same, as they are fundamentally different from what is created as an intended weapon.", that doesn't seem to be getting the point, which is that the other side does see them that way. They see self-defense as essential to a livelihood (just like food), and an armed populace as essential to a functioning society (just like free speech). If you see guns as a potentially dangerous privilege, then fine, but don't try to use arguments that rely on that premise on the other side. 

 

Keep in mind that I'm not arguing for control, I feel more of it as an inevitability. I guess I mostly get it by looking at the mounting anti-gun movements, and those state-to-state wins don't mean all that much with federal bans looming over political issues (like with Russian/Chinese import bans). I can only see more happening every time another issue hits the media loop. You're in a better position to know than I am, so I'm only saying it's how I perceive things. All I know is that the anti-gun arguments mount every day, and the arguments we gun owners use are losing their foundation, and the tone seems to only get worse.

 

The relatable argument thing is a bit more complicated to me, and I'm mostly looking it at from the perspective of "I'm convinced, but are they?." I live in a town that has maybe had two homicides since the early '80s (one of them being committed in another town and dumped here) and very rare break-ins, so I own guns mostly because I enjoy target shooting and as an emergency switch when I'm hiking (My M44 has scared off more bears than it will ever shoot). I mostly buy older rifles because I have more of an interest in their history and looks, and since I'm in PA I can't hunt semi-auto. A person who buys guns for regular hunting or personal defense is unrelatable in terms of reasons why to own firearms, but I can relate to their tools and draw a reasonable conclusion on what they want and need. However, the average Joe whose only familiarity with guns is from media or cultural influence will have a more difficult time relating. If they've made twenty, thirty, forty, etc. years without ever owning a gun and never feeling they did,

 

For example, it's possible to spin the CCW permits as a good thing to those on the fence. People with CCW permits tend to make up an absolutely miniscule percentage of violent crimes (disingenuous arguments put the number higher, but they leave out the "violent" part). This can show CCW holders as those who crossed hurdles to protect themselves. They wanted to be responsible gun owners looking out for their safety, jumped the hurdles, and proved themselves and the CCW system. The "tyranny of kings" and "what if someone came to your house and raped your wife" arguments are good for riling up a base, but being Angry Man with Gun is most of the time going to push people away. And people vote.

[Sturgeon]

 

The Kel-Tec P3AT is a weapon of desperation. It was designed compromising every single good characteristic of a handgun just to shoot .380 pills semi-automatically from a gun that was as small as possible, with no concessions to handling or shootability.

 

The Glock Model 42 is a full-size combat handgun designed for Peter Dinklage.

[Sturgeon]

Keep in mind that I'm not arguing for control, I feel more of it as an inevitability. I guess I mostly get it by looking at the mounting anti-gun movements, and those state-to-state wins don't mean all that much with federal bans looming over political issues (like with Russian/Chinese import bans). I can only see more happening every time another issue hits the media loop. You're in a better position to know than I am, so I'm only saying it's how I perceive things. All I know is that the anti-gun arguments mount every day, and the arguments we gun owners use are losing their foundation, and the tone seems to only get worse.

 

The relatable argument thing is a bit more complicated to me, and I'm mostly looking it at from the perspective of "I'm convinced, but are they?." I live in a town that has maybe had two homicides since the early '80s (one of them being committed in another town and dumped here) and very rare break-ins, so I own guns mostly because I enjoy target shooting and as an emergency switch when I'm hiking (My M44 has scared off more bears than it will ever shoot). I mostly buy older rifles because I have more of an interest in their history and looks, and since I'm in PA I can't hunt semi-auto. A person who buys guns for regular hunting or personal defense is unrelatable in terms of reasons why to own firearms, but I can relate to their tools and draw a reasonable conclusion on what they want and need. However, the average Joe whose only familiarity with guns is from media or cultural influence will have a more difficult time relating. If they've made twenty, thirty, forty, etc. years without ever owning a gun and never feeling they did,

 

For example, it's possible to spin the CCW permits as a good thing to those on the fence. People with CCW permits tend to make up an absolutely miniscule percentage of violent crimes (disingenuous arguments put the number higher, but they leave out the "violent" part). This can show CCW holders as those who crossed hurdles to protect themselves. They wanted to be responsible gun owners looking out for their safety, jumped the hurdles, and proved themselves and the CCW system. The "tyranny of kings" and "what if someone came to your house and raped your wife" arguments are good for riling up a base, but being Angry Man with Gun is most of the time going to push people away. And people vote.

 

I don't think gun control is that popular of an issue for the Left. The elites love pushing it, but most of the time the average Democrat at best kind of goes "mumble mumble background checks mumble". The rabid anti-gunners who aren't elites are mostly from other countries and the megalopoleis, but even the latter of two is much less zealous about that issue generally, in my experience, then they are about racism, sexism, or even taxation.

I don't see where this looming threat is. Gun control's for the most part an unpopular issue with the leftist base, and the leadership in the gun control movement is totally incompetent and out of touch. Lo, and behold, the pro-gun side gains ground every day, especially among women.

[Bronezhilet]

This whole gun control debate is easy if you DON'T BELIEVE IN FUN! HA! GOT YOU THERE!

 

Seriously though, most of this debate sounds hilarious to Europeans. Probably a culture thing or whatever.

[Meplat]

I'm sorry, but that argument is as weak to me as mine was to you. I'm not going to take arguments like books/red meat the same, as they are fundamentally different from what is created as an intended weapon. My concern is that at the current rate, we will only get more gun control whether we like it or not, so the gun community and lobbyists are going to have to think really hard about what their arguments are going to be further down the road.

 

Working in food, I've seen states and countries ban food here because the fervent sanctimommies hear "something something microbes" about say, certain types of cheese, that it gets banned due to apathy and misinformation. Now making certain types of artisinal breads, cheeses, and meats are straight-up illegal due to lobbying and lack of any sort of strong "pro-food" base. Guns are not out of the equation. The problem with arguing gun control is that there is more of a passion now against them than ever, while at most other times it was indifference, with exceptions perhaps in the prohibition era. There are people actively rooting against gun ownership, and the apathetic types who live just fine without a gun, so we're going to need something besides "guns are a right, no dice" because there are people that are just not going to be convinced.

 

You're assuming and basing your stance on  all firearms being "intended weapons".  Examples like my Colt Huntsman or Savage 416T would beg to differ.  Even one of my AR's, although it looks like a eebil assault riffle, was intended to be used as a match rifle for competition (and says so on the lower).  It was marketed and sold as a paper puncher, and is , despite it's looks, all it is really good for..  Being that the vast majority of gun control provisions are based on external/cosmetic features that have no bearing on the function of the mechanism proper, my analogy regarding books works quite well, in that both are absurdities.

 

Now while I agree that the FDA, etc are way out of control regarding unpasteurized dairy products,  there is no (supposedly) Constitutionally guaranteed right to "keep and bear cheese". There is one, enumerated immediately below the one that one (supposedly) guaranteeing the right to free speech, a free press , freedom of religion and freedom of assembly. 

 

Which brings me to those you mention "who will not be convinced" (many of them are in government).

 

"Too Fucking Bad". 

Politicians and hoplophobes who work to restrict the Second amendment, I assure you, are also working (intentionally or otherwise) to restrict the other amendments, and should be treated as the vermin they are.

[Tied]

This whole gun control debate is easy if you DON'T BELIEVE IN FUN! HA! GOT YOU THERE!

Seriously though, most of this debate sounds hilarious to Europeans. Probably a culture thing or whatever.

What?

Im a european and its deeply concerning. YOU'll TAKE MY EAST GERMAN RPG-7v WITH TRIPOD FROM MY COLD GRUBBY HANDS

All kidding aside. Im always surpised to here this from western Europeans. Since, like ive mentioned, we were always told that you all had mg-34's set up in your backyards to try to speedbump liberation

[Sturgeon]

So, some Guardian reporters got kicked out of the SHOT Show for asking questions about San Bernadino.

Here's a clue for those guys: The SHOT Show is an industry trade show, not your personal sandbox for doing "edgy" reporting. The people there attend because they want to make money by actually buying and selling goods to one another. That is the primary purpose of the show. If you come in and disrupt business, they will kick you out. Period. They did it to Larry Vickers, and they'll sure as hell do it to you.

[Alex C.]

http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/pennsylvania-man-found-guilty-jury-trial

Autoweapons.com guy is in deep shit.

[Sturgeon]

Oops.

[Donward]

Given the regulatory hoops and the fact that you essentially give up your right to the Fourth Amendment, there is very little enticement at the moment for me to want to own Class 3 automatic weapons. 

[Alex C.]

Don, an individual gives up nothing when owning a title II firearm. This jack wagon was a dealer.

Thats a big boy crime too. He got caught falsifying demo letters for HK416s and selling the uppers for 5-6k a piece. And selling peq-15s and peq-2s.

Falsifying police letterheads to illegally acquire MGs to part out to the public is no joke. Also all HK416 uppers are super grey market because of the 2005 barrel ban. The police officers who helped are going down too.

When the ATF, DOD, FBI, FDA, and IRS all come down on you, you have really fucked up.

[Khand-e]

Don, an individual gives up nothing when owning a title II firearm. This jack wagon was a dealer.

Thats a big boy crime too. He got caught falsifying demo letters for HK416s and selling the uppers for 5-6k a piece. And selling peq-15s and peq-2s.

Falsifying police letterheads to illegally acquire MGs to part out to the public is no joke. Also all HK416 uppers are super grey market because of the 2005 barrel ban. The police officers who helped are going down too.

When the ATF, DOD, FBI, FDA, and IRS all come down on you, you have really fucked up.

 

Damn, he and the policemen risked his ass for H&K products? deserve death sentences imo.

[Alex C.]

He was buying $1200 416s and selling uppers for a fuck ton (and all the other parts).

And brokered 3b lasers illegally. And tax fraud/evasion. And falsifying government documents.

So yeah.

[Donward]

He was buying $1200 416s and selling uppers for a fuck ton (and all the other parts).

And brokered 3b lasers illegally. And tax fraud/evasion. And falsifying government documents.

So yeah.

 

5 years down the road the NRA will start fundraising in order to get this guy's right to own weapons restored.

 

What was that?

 

Yeah. You donate to the fucking NRA and they advocate getting "non-violent" felons their guns back. 

 

https://www.nraila.org/articles/20150605/house-votes-to-let-nonviolent-ex-felons-restore-gun-rights

 

Fucking, money-grubbing incompetent scum.

[Alex C.]

Well this is interesting:

http://fortune.com/2016/01/21/german-gun-maker-us-gun-sales/

[Khand-e]

I do actually carry a German gun.

 

.... A Walther PPQ M2.

[Alex C.]

Been carrying a beat to shit P7 for years now. See no reason to switch to anything else.

[Khand-e]

Been carrying a beat to shit P7 for years now. See no reason to switch to anything else.

 

I'm going to get a Dreyse M1907 just to out German hipster the fuck out of you for my carry gun.