DRDO; India's Porsche

[Bronezhilet]

I know we already have a topic on the Arjun, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't have another thread about how DRDO can't make anything.

 

I mean, the Arjun program started in 1974 (according to Wikipedia) and the thing got produced 30 years later, in 2004. Should we take a look at the list of tanks that got developed at around the same time period?

 

T-72

T-80

Type 88

Type 96

Type 74

OF-40

Merkava 1

Merkava 2

Merkava 3

Leopard 2

M1 Abrams

Challenger 1

M-84

K-1

Type 90

Leclerc

T-90

PT-91

Zulfiqar

C1 Ariete

Challenger 2

TR-85

T-84

...and many more

 

A keen I will have noticed that these are both second and third generation tanks, which is right, because the development of the Arjun took place during two generations of tanks. Of note is that the Israelis managed to make three Merkava variants in the time DRDO took to develop the Arjun. And if that wasn't enough, he Challenger 1 was developed, build, accepted for service, and taken out of service by the Brits in less time than it took DRDO to deliver the first batch of Arjuns. What the fuck.

 

Alright alright I'll stop the bashing! So lets take a look at the armour of the Arjun:

 

Okay now that we've taken a look at the armour of the Arjun, we can take a look at something of which the Indians pretend is armour.

First, the turret 'armour':

The first good thing to note about the turret armour is that the left front is decent. The second good thing about the turret armour is that it's so bad I can spend a whole post on burning it down.

 

The mantlet looks thick in this model, but it looks like it's not modeled right since it seems to be fused with the frontal armour itself. This is what the actual armour in the gun mantlet looks like:

It's fairly thin, like in the Leclerc, but even worse is that it does not cover the whole gap in the turret. Seriously DRDO, what the fuck? Of course there are pictures of a fully assembled model, but it seems that the completed mantlet is no more than a sheet metal box around the structure shown in the above photo. I mean, look at this:

You can see the weld lines and shit on top of the 'mantlet', there is no reason to believe this is a solid steel block.

 

These pictures bring me nicely to the next two points:

1. The turret side basically lacks any and all side armour

2. The gunner sight barely has any armour

 

The green blocks on the turret side in the first picture are actually storage boxes, not armour. The majority of the side is only a few cm thick steel plate. Lets just compare this to the Leopard 2A4 for a second:

(Thanks to @Militarysta for making this picture)

 

You can see that the turret side protection extends way, way further back on the Leopard 2A4 than it does on the Arjun. The Arjun only has to rotate the turret slightly to be completely vulnerable to even low caliber autocannons. And as you can imagine, that's not good.

You can also see that the armour block behind the gunner sight is around 660 mm LOS, the same spot in the Arjun is estimated to be around 300 mm thick. Don't worry about the lower part of the gun sight, that has no armour at all. The sight itself looks like this:

 

So the turret has negligible side protection, horrible frontal protection, and a shit mantlet.

 

But wait, there's more!

 

The turret roof is really thin. If you take a look at this picture you'd say that it has a decently thick roof:

 

See? That looks to be like a solid few cm thick. So why say the roof is really thin? Well, take a look at this as well:

 

That hatch/cupola is raised. So what looks to be a roof that's a few cm thick is just a raised cupola. Which means that the turret roof itself is horribly thin. And since the front third is sloped forward that means APFSDS can easily yaw into the crew compartment, and lets not speak about attacks from above because that'll end in tears for the Arjun.

 

Is there anything not shit about the Arjun turret?

 

...

 

No! Actually!

 

A sharp-eyed reader will already have noticed that the turret ammorack has absolutely no protection at all:

 

The inside of the turret itself is a horrible fucking mess, just look at it:

That's right, those cables are hanging from fucking string.

 

Since the gun is also in the turret, surely that must be a good part of the turret, right? Right!? I mean, they had until 2004 to select or make a good gun!

 

Aahahahahahahha, no. It's a rifled 120 mm. In 2004. Helloooooo India, welcome to Britain, 19-fucking-80s.

 

...well maybe they have very good ammunition!

 

No. That's about the same as DM23. Which was introduced in 1983. 1984 saw a medium-high L/D (20+ L/D) penetrator for the US, 1987 for Germany and 1986 for the Soviet Union. We got high L/D (30+ L/D) penetrators in the early 90s. India's still rocking that good-ol' 17 L/D trash.

 

 

 

Sooooo will the hull be any better?

 

No. Access hatch in the upper glacis.

 

On TS I was talking to @Collimatrix about how the driver's position most likely makes the upper glacis in front of him thinner, but that turned out not to be true, since...

...his position doesn't reach the fucking glacis in the first place.

 

Not only that, look at how fucking horsewank thin that glacis is. With how thin it is, it's most likely just solid steel instead of NERA, even though the Indians claim it uses NERA, and they have this to say about their NERA:

Quote

 

When a projectile is fired, the armor stops it via compression and de-compression method. As the projectile hits the armor, it faces compression because of the RHA, and then it faces decompression because of the composite. When the projectile passes through several such sandwiched layers, it breaks up the APFDS or HEAT shot. [...]

In 1980’s the Kanchan composite had a composition of ceramic, alumina, fiber glass and some other such materials mixed. The RHA tried out had two thicknesses, i.e. a 350 mm plate and a 315 m plate. However these two plates had the same weight as a 120mm RHA. Hence it is said that Kanchan armor is more volume at same weight.

 

Literally fucking what

 

I could probably go on and on and on about the retardation that's called Arjun, but I won't. I have subjected myself to too much stupidity already since I had to go to fucking places like defenceforumindia which was completely fucking malarious. And if you don't know what that word means, it's a combination of malaria and hilarious since reading defenceforumindia is equal parts sickening and hilarious.

 

 

[Xoon]

[barbaria]

 

Aside from the flipflops in a tank factory, it seems that the UFP is made of some sort of multi-layer armor.

 

It looks like they took the leopard 2 design and made it worse on purpose in every aspect possible. Deleting the special armor array behind the gunners sight, having no armored ammo compartment in the turret bustle with blow-out panels, having a rifled 120mm gun, having an engine based on the leopard 1 engine and having worse turret side armor coverage.

 

The leopard 2 has it's design flaws and the Indians manged to amplify that. Kudos to them for achieving that.

[Mighty_Zuk]

So I understand Indians themselves defend this creation?

Also, you forgot my lovely Merky 4. That's the entire family of prominent models within just the lifetime of a single Arjun.

Though you gotta admit it, it's pretty advanced for a mid-70's development.

[Khand-e]

2 hours ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

So I understand Indians themselves defend this creation?

Also, you forgot my lovely Merky 4. That's the entire family of prominent models within just the lifetime of a single Arjun.

Though you gotta admit it, it's pretty advanced for a mid-70's development.

 

Worse than just defend, go to DefenseforumInida or other such places sometime (seriously, It's actually even WORSE than he says) and just read the blind fanaticism for the Arjun they have and how amazing it is and any other piece of fucking shit DRDO has turned out over the past few decades (INSAS, Tejas, LCH, their all of 4 ICBM submarine that's trash, etc etc etc.)

[roguetechie]

The small arms section has an SME that would make gary roberts, mike sparks, AND Tony Williams all look like Colonel motherfuckin Chinn!

[Bronezhilet]

8 hours ago, barbaria said:

 

Aside from the flipflops in a tank factory, it seems that the UFP is made of some sort of multi-layer armor.

 

It looks like they took the leopard 2 design and made it worse on purpose in every aspect possible. Deleting the special armor array behind the gunners sight, having no armored ammo compartment in the turret bustle with blow-out panels, having a rifled 120mm gun, having an engine based on the leopard 1 engine and having worse turret side armor coverage.

 

The leopard 2 has it's design flaws and the Indians manged to amplify that. Kudos to them for achieving that.

I'm on mobile so picture quality is garbage, but where do you see the UFP? When looking at the drawing I posted the armour is thin enough to suggest that it's solid steel. There's no way NERA thin like that is going to stop anything significant.

 

6 hours ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

So I understand Indians themselves defend this creation?

Also, you forgot my lovely Merky 4. That's the entire family of prominent models within just the lifetime of a single Arjun.

Though you gotta admit it, it's pretty advanced for a mid-70's development.

Not just defend, they aggressively attack anyone who even suggests something that isn't positive. One kept screaming and yelling even after there was picture proof to show he was wrong. He said that there was 800mm of armour behind the gunner's sight. Which means that the gunner is literally inside the commander. His solution for that? Just place the gunner next to the commander, inside the gun! ...waitwhat

 

And as proof of that he posts a render with the gunner clearly in front of the commander.

 

So if you were wondering why some Western tank 'experts' argue like shitheads, the answer is Indian forums. Or they're dipshits, that's also possible.

[barbaria]

Quote

I'm on mobile so picture quality is garbage, but where do you see the UFP? When looking at the drawing I posted the armour is thin enough to suggest that it's solid steel. There's no way NERA thin like that is going to stop anything significant.

 

You can see different multiple layers around the driver's hatch, it's barely visible though. It looks to me like multiple layers but I could be wrong.

[Khand-e]

I figure this would be a good time to bring this back.

 

 

Though, I might need to go from 4 to 6 armed Shiva to add some of DRDO more recent *creations*

 

 

[SH_MM]

Throwback Thursday Saturday, to when I used to post on DFI. The Arjun is really a bad tank that should have been canceled. But well, funding government insitutions for no gain is not unique to India. What I think is the most astonishing fact in the development is that the Arjun program exceeded its original budget by more than twenty times. Any politician with a brain would have stopped such a waste of money.

 

The Arjun Mk 2 fails to fix any real problems of the tank.

 

 

12 hours ago, barbaria said:

It looks like they took the leopard 2 design and made it worse on purpose in every aspect possible. Deleting the special armor array behind the gunners sight, having no armored ammo compartment in the turret bustle with blow-out panels, having a rifled 120mm gun, having an engine based on the leopard 1 engine and having worse turret side armor coverage.

 

The leopard 2 has it's design flaws and the Indians manged to amplify that. Kudos to them for achieving that.

 

The Arjun has no relation to the Leopard 2, even in its basic design.

[Mighty_Zuk]

Although I'm not the one who said that, but @SH_MM you have to agree that the Arjun's turret looks like a Leopard 2A1-4's turret mated with the Leclerc's horrid mantlet, but worse.

 

I guess it's time I register to DFI. The shit flinging will be fun. Maybe we can assemble a whole squad.

[Collimatrix]

300mm penetration at 2km is pretty sad, especially considering how little penetration APFSDS loses over range.  There are 105mm rounds from three decades ago that are better than that.

 

Is there any chance that's actually a dual-purpose FAPFSDS or something?

[Khand-e]

8 minutes ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

Although I'm not the one who said that, but @SH_MM you have to agree that the Arjun's turret looks like a Leopard 2A1-4's turret mated with the Leclerc's horrid mantlet, but worse.

 

I guess it's time I register to DFI. The shit flinging will be fun. Maybe we can assemble a whole squad.

 

DFI is literally one of the the worst (top 5 for sure) military "discussion" sites on the internet.

 

"Malarious" was a very inaccurate description, because unlike reading DFI, Malaria can be cured, It's more like Super Ebola.

[Mighty_Zuk]

48 minutes ago, Khand-e said:

 

DFI is literally one of the the worst (top 5 for sure) military "discussion" sites on the internet.

 

"Malarious" was a very inaccurate description, because unlike reading DFI, Malaria can be cured, It's more like Super Ebola.

My people have been through worse. I can handle.

 

@Collimatrix I believe for the AT role they've also developed thermobaric rounds. I am quite positive it was said to be anti-tank and NOT anti-material.

 

We should just rename this thread into:

"DRDO me-me's"

[Bronezhilet]

11 hours ago, barbaria said:

 

You can see different multiple layers around the driver's hatch, it's barely visible though. It looks to me like multiple layers but I could be wrong.

That's just the edge where the hatch rests on when it's closed. When closed the hatch is flush (or actually receded a bit) with the roof so it has to have an edge to rest on. Plus the hatch isn't actually in the upper glacis but in the hull roof.

[barbaria]

4 hours ago, Collimatrix said:

300mm penetration at 2km is pretty sad, especially considering how little penetration APFSDS loses over range.  There are 105mm rounds from three decades ago that are better than that.

 

Is there any chance that's actually a dual-purpose FAPFSDS or something?

 

Or they forgot to mention it's 300mm at 60 degrees angle. But then again the L/D ratio is awfull..

[Khand-e]

4 minutes ago, barbaria said:

 

Or they forgot to mention it's 300mm at 60 degrees angle. But then again the L/D ratio is awfull..

 

APFSDS long rods tend to not give a shit about angling, if anything, 60 dergrees will shift the asymmetric stress from the projectile to the armor and actually increase penetration in the case of long rods.

 

 

[barbaria]

I meant a 300mm thick plate canted at 60 degrees.

[Bronezhilet]

That's not what the data sheet says though. 300mm of penetration is 300mm of penetration. The angle isn't important since APFSDS really doesn't give a shit about angle. If anything you want to test without angling the target because of the way APFSDS dips into angled armour. For a 17 L/D the auto-bounce angle is something like 83 degrees, for a high L/D penetrator it's something ridiculous like 89 degrees.

[barbaria]

17 minutes ago, Bronezhilet said:

That's not what the data sheet says though. 300mm of penetration is 300mm of penetration. The angle isn't important since APFSDS really doesn't give a shit about angle. If anything you want to test without angling the target because of the way APFSDS dips into angled armour. For a 17 L/D the auto-bounce angle is something like 83 degrees, for a high L/D penetrator it's something ridiculous like 89 degrees.

 

You  never know with Indians..

[SH_MM]

The penetration of the Indian 120 mm Mk I APFSDS is 150 mm @ 60° aka 300 mm along the line-of-sight. Please also note the combat range of 2,000 metres...

 

 

Spoiler

 

Funny story, someone at DFI got pissed of when I posted this image and photoshoped another value in... nice forum.

 

The 120 mm Mk I APFSDS is a lot worse than the old DM23 APFSDS from the Leopard 2; however the Indian later designed a 120 mm Mk 2 APFSDS. There are conflicting infos about this round; sometimes photos show what seems to be identical to the 120 mm Mk I APFSDS, sometimes they quote higher pen values...

 

[Bronezhilet]

14 minutes ago, SH_MM said:

The penetration of the Indian 120 mm Mk I APFSDS is 150 mm @ 60° aka 300 mm along the line-of-sight. Please also note the combat range of 2,000 metres...

 

 

That's fucking horrid.

 

So basically the only thing incapable of penetrating the Arjun is....

 

...another Arjun.

[barbaria]

I retract my posts. Never give DRDO the benefit of the doubt.

[Khand-e]

I agree, we should really make this the laugh at DRDO/DFI and other Indian Ultra nationalist sites.

[Bronezhilet]

6 hours ago, Collimatrix said:

Is there any chance that's actually a dual-purpose FAPFSDS or something?

Are you trying to imply DRDO actually made something nifty?