The Small Arms Thread, Part 8: 2018; ICSR to be replaced by US Army with interim 15mm Revolver Cannon.

[LoooSeR]

 

Oman

[D.E. Watters]

The recent articles posted about the Czech Air Marshall ammunition research reminded me of some random comments I posted several years ago in regards to European police duty ammunition, particularly the Geco/RUAG Action-series. I'm going to try and piece them together here.

The Action Safety round was developed by Geco (Gustav Genschow & Co.), an old German brand. It was part of the Dynamit Nobel family of ammunition manufacturers. The latter was ultimately acquired by the Swiss company RUAG.

The goal was to provide an expanding projectile that would feed as reliably as FMJ in semi-auto and full-auto firearms. Up to the 1970s, few firearm manufacturers had ever considered the requirement to feed JSP or JHP ammunition in their designs. On the opposite side, most ammunition manufacturers still had not come up with a way to make reliably feeding and expanding JSP and JHP for self-loading firearms. Rounds that fed reliably often didn't expand, and rounds that expanded often didn't feed reliably.

With the early Action Safety variants, the plastic plug was actually blown out the front of the projectile when it was fired. If you look at the product sheets, you can see that there was a small hole drilled all the way through the bullet. Later versions retained the plug to reduce the downrange hazard.

Another German ammunition manufacturer, Metallwerk Elisenhutte GmbH (MEN), came up with its own answer: the Quick Defense. The Quick Defense originally had a thin metal cap over the hollowpoint. The cap collapsed into the cavity when the projectile hit its target, but the cap was not substantial enough to effect expansion. The cap was later replaced by a ball, kind of like the current CorBon Pow'RBall. .

The light projectile weight for these rounds was inspired by the terminal ballistics theories of the 1970s that worshiped high velocity and kinetic energy. Back in the US in those days, the hot ticket in 9x19mm was the Super Vel 90gr JHP and the Federal Cartridge 95gr JSP briefly issued by the Illinois State Police for their S&W Model 39. In a 1972 document, the ISP claimed that one of the reasons they had adopted a 9x19mm pistol was that if they found the need for higher velocity, they could always rebarrel their pistols for .30 Luger! The ISP document explained that the advantages of lightweight, high velocity projectiles were that they gave good penetration in barrier materials, yet limited penetration in flesh. The lightweight projectiles would also slow down faster in flight, giving a shorter maximum range. This would reduce the danger to bystanders further downrange.

Several of the latter variants in the Action and QD family were redesigned to appease political sensitivities. For instance, the Dutch Police wanted to adopt the Geco Action Safety back when they adopted the Walther P5 back in the 1980s. Once learning of this decision, various leftist organizations protested the issue of expanding ammunition as "inhumane". So they were left with the choice of either issuing standard military FMJ, or a reduced velocity/lightweight FMJ.

In 1990, the Dutch were finally allowed to adopt the Action 3 variant, and several years later, the Action Effect variant. These were considered politically acceptable, as the nose didn't expand beyond the original bullet diameter. For other markets, the limited expansion MEN QD2 was positioned as an alternative to the Action 3 and Action Effect

Here is a patent for the original Geco Action Safety design:

http://www.google.com/patents/US4175492

This patent includes the original MEN Quick Defense design:

http://www.google.com/patents/US4136616

This appears to be the patent for the later Action Safety designs that retained the nose plug (Action 4, Action 5, and Action Effect):

http://www.google.com/patents/US6971315

[T___A]

Photographic proof that the PTRS-41 was the standard infantry arm of the RKKA during the Great Patriotic War:

[ApplesauceBandit]

I just finally finished binge reading this entire thread, all 292 pages of it. 

 

While that pump .22 I posted a few days back is in the family, I've not really got any gun to call my own.  I figured I would start either with some affordable semi auto surplus rifle (probably an SKS), or a handgun I could use for conceal carry.  Going off of the TFB post about what you should look for in buying a gun, the handgun would probably be more useful for me.

 

 

Looking around and from talking with a friend, I think that handgun would be a micro desert eagle.  For a .380 pocket pistol the thing comes across to me as being quite sturdy, and thanks to the all metal construction and .380 round, not as much of a pain to shoot as a lighter platform probably would be.  I don't intend on carrying anything too big and bulky around considering my usual clothing of choice, which is another reason I went for .380.  the MDE doesn't really have any obnoxious safeties or point outy things that would get it stuck on much either if I got in a hurry.

 

While I do intend to be able to have it around for self defense on occasion, being able to shoot it for fun is also an important piece for me.  I don't want some Kel-tec popgun that will explode on me after 500 rounds, or anything like whatever that awful pocket 9mm I shot a while back was that I hated after the first shot.

 

 

To expand on it being sturdy, while I generally don't have an issue with polymer being used in guns, when your gun is smaller than the glorious Pilot G2 pen, I begin to question if they'll have enough room for the plastic to really make it sturdy enough.  I found a review online a while back where a guy put 500 rounds through the thing at once without anything in between and didn't have a single hiccup.

http://www.dayattherange.com/?p=1230

 

 

 

 

Bonus points given for it looking like the pistol from Halo, as well as having a really snazzy looking wooden grip available.

 

 

 

 

 

While I don't know how soon I'd be able to get this, I'd like to hear what some of the more knowledgeable people here might have to say about it.

[Sturgeon]

Don't have much experience with the Magnum Research, but I bet the trigger is poor. Most double-action triggers of that type absolutely suck, and I'd be surprised if the MR was an exception. The combination of small size and poor trigger will probably make that gun not very fun on the range. For a first gun, I think something that is a chore to shoot is a bad choice.

If you want a handgun you can conceal and shoot, get a Glock 19 to start with, that's what I tell everyone. Here's why:

1. You can find them for a little over $400 new if you shop around.

2. They have the single best magazine design of any handgun on the market; it's very difficult to break or deform them.

3. They accept cheap 9mm ammunition, which is 2/3s or less the cost of .380, .40, or .45.

4. They have soft shooting characteristics.

5. They are extremely water resistant.

6. They are very reliable.

7. They are a lot more concealable than you think.

 

8. They do not "train in" poor trigger discipline like guns with manual safeties tend to do.

9. If you simply do not like it, you can always find someone to sell it to for close to full value.


If you really do want a pocket pistol you can shoot, then get a Glock 42, which is the softest-shooting .380 pocket gun I have ever fired (in fact, I think it's a little softer-shooting than the 19). That gun is eminently concealable, as well, but the ammunition is more expensive than 9mm. I would also consider a Glock 43, which is a little bigger than the 42 but it still fits in a pocket and is chambered for cheap 9mm.

I understand that some people don't want to "get in" to the gun world and just want a handgun for self-protection. That's absolutely fine, but for people who do want to get into shooting for its own sake, I recommend starting with a rifle. Once upon a time I would have said it was a no-brainer to get a Ruger 10/22 right off the bat, but with the price (and in some cases, scarcity) of .22 LR these days, you could as easily buy an AR-15 or similar for a first rifle, too.

[ApplesauceBandit]

words

 

At least when I went around shopping a month or so ago, there seemed to be plenty of .22lr around at $5 for 50, and I'm sure I could get a .22 rifle of some sort from my uncle.  I know he has a Marlin 60 with a longer barrel and short tube underneath, as well as probably a few other different ones kept at a friend's place.  Those guns come from my grandfathers collection, same as the pump .22.  The only places without .22 ammo were the two Walmarts I went to, but all the gun shops and pawn shops had plenty.  One pawn shop had these giant bulk boxes full of the 50 round packs, so I grabbed a few from there.

 

I'll be a bit busy the next couple days, so I won't have time today to look too deeply into those Glocks.  I've shot a couple of them in the past and thought they were fine guns, though I also haven't been around all too many guns either.  My issue with a Glock 19 is I don't think I could use a wallet holster on it in my pocket like a MDE, which is what I'd need to do.  A lot of the time, keeping something at my waist wouldn't be a good option, and a pea shooter shaped like a wallet is a lot easier to not notice.  Something like this is what I have in mind, including buying it from a site that uses the joker font in their banner.

http://www.pocketholsters.com/Desert_Eagle_Micro_Pocket_Hols/desert_eagle_micro_pocket_holster.html

 

The friend I've been talking to about the MDE happens to have one as well that he uses as a carry gun all the time, so I asked him to clarify on how it felt to shoot.  To quote him, "I wouldn't call it a chore, but it isn't super pleasant either. But it is a tiny tiny gun, and it is far more comfy than other 380s".  He's a big fan of the thing, and often calls it "the only 380 pocket gun that is actually meant to be shot".  While he's too far away for me to actually visit and try the thing, he's the sort of guy that believes very strongly in the "buy something once that you can use for the rest of your life" belief, applying that even down to the pen he uses. 

 

 

The review I linked in my previous post has the guy liking the trigger after having put some shots through it.  Those 500 shots in a row were dirty lead hand loads too, and it went another 500 without any hiccups then either.  A guy in the comments from the review I linked say it's actually got a rather good trigger for a DOA, and the majority of other people in the comments have some pretty high praise for it most of the time as well.

http://www.dayattherange.com/?p=1230

 

 

To repost a comment from the review I linked:

 

I have had almost every mouse/compact gun out there. Glock, Walther, Keltec, Diamondback in multiple calibers and that’s just in the past few months… In the end the MDE was the only one I kept.

 

This gun is a compromise, it’s not terribly comfortable, it’s not so light and the sights are a bit hard to see BUT with all of that said, why has the MDE become my daily carry gun? Because this gun gets it right where it counts. It is the MOST RELIABLE, ACCURATE pocket pistol on the market and at the end of the day, isn’t the point of a concealed carry weapon to be able to be there when you need it and to work and work well when you do? If that’s the criteria, there’s nothing better than this little gun.

I have young kids and would never carry a striker fired gun with one in the chamber with them around which is just another reason I like this gun.

When building a priority list for a carry gun, if you really think about what you need it for, you will wind up with this at the top of your list… That is unless you really think you need 20 rounds of 45 for the zombie attack, but to protect from a thug, this will do perfectly and go bang every time

 

 

 

Thanks for the feedback though.  Should have time Thursday or Friday to look more into it.

Edited May 11, 2016 by ApplesauceBandit

[Belesarius]

 

Two US soldiers from the 40th Infantry Division with a M1 Garand and M1918A3 Browning Automatic Rifle, in the snow. c.1952

[Sturgeon]

Not to hammer this home, but you've got to realize that everyone talking about it are probably speaking relatively compared to other DAO pocket guns. Maybe I'm wrong about that, but I'd put money on being right.

In contrast, the Glock 42 shoots like a full-size gun and carries like a pocket pistol. It has the same trigger as a regular Glock, and fits a DeSantis Nemesis holster in your front pocket just peachy. The 43, though a bit bigger, will too.

There are some other general things I'd say targeted at no one and nothing in particular that didn't make it into my article for new gun buyers:

1. You can always find 10 reviews telling you what you want to hear, everywhere from gunrags, to blogs, to magazines. A product that has a failure rate of 50% will still make the other 50% of its customers happy.

2. Finding the right gun for you will be a matter of sourcing reliable information from people who've shot a lot of rounds through a lot of different guns, and used those guns for what you want to use them for.

3. The sort of zeitgeist of this is that "boring" guns (like Glocks) got to be that way because lots of people used and depended on them and came away satisfied. Not all boring guns are good (*cough* Remington 700 *cough*) but almost all exciting guns are unproven. Since most guns will suck, and guns that don't suck tend to become "boring", the proportion of exciting guns that suck will be higher than the proportion of all guns that suck. This is a long-winded way of saying that if you want a gun you'll be happy with that is practical for you, set aside your desire to be a unique snowflake or to own something cool, and think about your needs, then buy something boring.

 

[Alex C.]

Carrying anything but an H&K P7 is downright foolish and will probably get you killed.

[Meplat]

 

The recent articles posted about the Czech Air Marshall ammunition research reminded me of some random comments I posted several years ago in regards to European police duty ammunition, particularly the Geco/RUAG Action-series. I'm going to try and piece them together here.

The Action Safety round was developed by Geco (Gustav Genschow & Co.), an old German brand. It was part of the Dynamit Nobel family of ammunition manufacturers. The latter was ultimately acquired by the Swiss company RUAG.

The goal was to provide an expanding projectile that would feed as reliably as FMJ in semi-auto and full-auto firearms. Up to the 1970s, few firearm manufacturers had ever considered the requirement to feed JSP or JHP ammunition in their designs. On the opposite side, most ammunition manufacturers still had not come up with a way to make reliably feeding and expanding JSP and JHP for self-loading firearms. Rounds that fed reliably often didn't expand, and rounds that expanded often didn't feed reliably.

With the early Action Safety variants, the plastic plug was actually blown out the front of the projectile when it was fired. If you look at the product sheets, you can see that there was a small hole drilled all the way through the bullet. Later versions retained the plug to reduce the downrange hazard.

Another German ammunition manufacturer, Metallwerk Elisenhutte GmbH (MEN), came up with its own answer: the Quick Defense. The Quick Defense originally had a thin metal cap over the hollowpoint. The cap collapsed into the cavity when the projectile hit its target, but the cap was not substantial enough to effect expansion. The cap was later replaced by a ball, kind of like the current CorBon Pow'RBall. .

The light projectile weight for these rounds was inspired by the terminal ballistics theories of the 1970s that worshiped high velocity and kinetic energy. Back in the US in those days, the hot ticket in 9x19mm was the Super Vel 90gr JHP and the Federal Cartridge 95gr JSP briefly issued by the Illinois State Police for their S&W Model 39. In a 1972 document, the ISP claimed that one of the reasons they had adopted a 9x19mm pistol was that if they found the need for higher velocity, they could always rebarrel their pistols for .30 Luger! The ISP document explained that the advantages of lightweight, high velocity projectiles were that they gave good penetration in barrier materials, yet limited penetration in flesh. The lightweight projectiles would also slow down faster in flight, giving a shorter maximum range. This would reduce the danger to bystanders further downrange.

Several of the latter variants in the Action and QD family were redesigned to appease political sensitivities. For instance, the Dutch Police wanted to adopt the Geco Action Safety back when they adopted the Walther P5 back in the 1980s. Once learning of this decision, various leftist organizations protested the issue of expanding ammunition as "inhumane". So they were left with the choice of either issuing standard military FMJ, or a reduced velocity/lightweight FMJ.

In 1990, the Dutch were finally allowed to adopt the Action 3 variant, and several years later, the Action Effect variant. These were considered politically acceptable, as the nose didn't expand beyond the original bullet diameter. For other markets, the limited expansion MEN QD2 was positioned as an alternative to the Action 3 and Action Effect

Here is a patent for the original Geco Action Safety design:

http://www.google.com/patents/US4175492

This patent includes the original MEN Quick Defense design:

http://www.google.com/patents/US4136616

This appears to be the patent for the later Action Safety designs that retained the nose plug (Action 4, Action 5, and Action Effect):

http://www.google.com/patents/US6971315

 

The "blown plug" concept reminds me of the late "BAT " munitions.

[Meplat]

Carrying anything but an H&K P7 is downright foolish and will probably get you killed.

I carry a CZ-75... Really?

[Alex C.]

I carry a CZ-75... Really?

Damn, your days are numbered bro.

[Meplat]

Damn, your days are numbered bro.

Perhaps. I suspect that number is directly proportional to the  magazine capacity on hand.

[Donward]

I think we all know what gun NOT to have during the Russkie invasion.

 

[Meplat]

I think we all know what gun NOT to have during the Russkie invasion.

 

I'd want a PKT, thanks. And whatever said PKT is mounted to...

[LostCosmonaut]

Since most guns will suck, and guns that don't suck tend to become "boring", the proportion of exciting guns that suck will be higher than the proportion of all guns that suck. \

 

 

So you're saying it would be a bad idea for me to buy an M950 as my first pistol?

[Meplat]

So you're saying it would be a bad idea for me to buy an M950 as my first pistol?

A what? That Calico thing?

 

Actually those were kind of neat, if you managed to find what ammo they liked.

[Donward]

Damn, your days are numbered bro.

Perhaps. I suspect that number is directly proportional to the  magazine capacity on hand.

 

Sometimes... Sometimes I only go out into public with the five rounds that are loaded in my revolver...

 

[Khand-e]

Alternatively, if you want a compact that's not striker fired for whatever reason and has a safety/decocker, Get a CZ 75 P-01 or P-07. The P-01 in particular is still aluminum framed so it will fit even if you're THAT skeptical of polymer lower frames for whatever reason.

I'm on mobile right now, I'll elaborate more when I'm back.

[D.E. Watters]

The "blown plug" concept reminds me of the late "BAT " munitions.

That is because the BAT was the Geco Action Safety.  US importer Phil Engeldrum merely slapped a sticker over the factory Geco boxes.

[LoooSeR]

 

Zenit products in Nigerian military

 

SAR-21?

 

[LoooSeR]

[Collimatrix]

 

 

SAR-21?

 

 

Yes, SAR-21.  What military is that?  It doesn't look like Singapore.

[LoooSeR]

Those photos are from Africa, IDK which country.

[Khand-e]

Well, Morocco is the only official user of the SAR-21 in Africa, but, not sure that's their uniforms.