The Small Arms Thread, Part 8: 2018; ICSR to be replaced by US Army with interim 15mm Revolver Cannon.

[Khand-e]

Unfortunately, the only ones who could give you the actual full story of how Norinco runs their less credible side of their export operations are those who would never speak about it.

 

Because well, let's just say Chinese prisons aren't exactly well known as the most hospitable places on Earth.

[LoooSeR]

Drugs are bad, MKAY

 

 

Popenker posted that. Upper guns are connceted to SPIW, i think, lower are unknown to me. 

[D.E. Watters]

5818 is the Springfield Armory SPIW Concept #1 prototype circa 1962.  There are publicity photos of John Garand holding it during an April 1962 tour of the Armory, and thus, it is a commonly misidentified as the T31 bullpup.  The hinged lower Concept #1 was rejected for future development in favor of the Concept #2, of which 5814 is a cannibalized example.  5824 is a further development of the Concept #2 along the lines of what was submitted for the 1964 SPIW trials.  You can see that the magazine well was lengthened for the quirky tandem magazine arrangement.  The latter was required to meet the 60rd magazine requirement without resulting in excess tube height.  I have not seen documentation on the sound suppressor seen on this variant, as it was not used on the trial models.

4186 is marked as a Silent Weapon System - Alpha concept model, but it looks like a restocked air rifle.  SWS-Alpha were developed around captive piston cartridges like the Cal. .30 XM76 and the Cal. .38 XM202.

 

 

 

Popenker posted that. Upper guns are connceted to SPIW, i think, lower are unknown to me. 

[D.E. Watters]

 

[Meplat]

The whole left hand are pyro launchers.

[Sturgeon]

War Is Boring is shit, on the M16 at least.

[Priory_of_Sion]

War Is Boring is shit, on the M16 at least.

And the M4 Sherman. 

[Virdea]

The author is quoting a single section of Kevin's book on special operations, and fails to call Kevin up for a complete understanding of why he wrote what he wrote and what it meant.

 

For those of you who have never met Kevin, he is the KING of statistical understanding of firearms when applied to gaming, and he has for a long time had massive access to the special operations world, plus is in tight with a number of gun manufacturers.  I doubt the author of the article has ever spoken to Kevin.

 

Kevin's point from the article sourced by Trevithick was that the AK47 was a prestige capture for US Special Operation soldiers in the early 1960s.  In this era the Special Operations soldiers were issued weapons by the US Air Force.  This included the AR15 on an experimental bases starting in 1960, and the M16 in 1962-63.  Otherwise they got .45 SMGs, Carbines, Garands, or BARs.

 

The AK-47 was VERY rare in Vietnam prior to 1969, but the ammo for it was not.  When Special Operations soldiers could get the AK47 they jumped at them, discarding experimental and hated AR15s (which they could not get much ammo for), and the whole suite of WW2 weapons.  Here Kevin is on firm ground because it was true - the AK47 was beloved by advisors in the early 60s.

 

Trevithick however makes a serious mistake when he compares apples to oranges.  In Kevin's book he goes on to discuss in many cases where the M16A1 was a key asset of special operations arsenals to the point where they actually scrambled for a LMG to fire 5.56, adopting the Stoner 63 which they LOVED.  How does Trevithick square that one: that the M16A1 was so entrenched in special operations that they searched the entire world to find an LMG that fired the same ammo.  And then carried the 63 for a decade past Vietnam when money and resources existed to have anything they wanted.

 

A little knowledge...

[Meplat]

And the M4 Sherman. 

Wow, those are fabulously bad articles.

[Sturgeon]

The author is quoting a single section of Kevin's book on special operations, and fails to call Kevin up for a complete understanding of why he wrote what he wrote and what it meant.

 

For those of you who have never met Kevin, he is the KING of statistical understanding of firearms when applied to gaming, and he has for a long time had massive access to the special operations world, plus is in tight with a number of gun manufacturers.  I doubt the author of the article has ever spoken to Kevin.

 

Kevin's point from the article sourced by Trevithick was that the AK47 was a prestige capture for US Special Operation soldiers in the early 1960s.  In this era the Special Operations soldiers were issued weapons by the US Air Force.  This included the AR15 on an experimental bases starting in 1960, and the M16 in 1962-63.  Otherwise they got .45 SMGs, Carbines, Garands, or BARs.

 

The AK-47 was VERY rare in Vietnam prior to 1969, but the ammo for it was not.  When Special Operations soldiers could get the AK47 they jumped at them, discarding experimental and hated AR15s (which they could not get much ammo for), and the whole suite of WW2 weapons.  Here Kevin is on firm ground because it was true - the AK47 was beloved by advisors in the early 60s.

 

Trevithick however makes a serious mistake when he compares apples to oranges.  In Kevin's book he goes on to discuss in many cases where the M16A1 was a key asset of special operations arsenals to the point where they actually scrambled for a LMG to fire 5.56, adopting the Stoner 63 which they LOVED.  How does Trevithick square that one: that the M16A1 was so entrenched in special operations that they searched the entire world to find an LMG that fired the same ammo.  And then carried the 63 for a decade past Vietnam when money and resources existed to have anything they wanted.

 

A little knowledge...

 

He also entirely misses the fact that early AR-15s received rave reviews from Green Berets as part of Project AGILE. Further, SF was and still is intimately involved in the AR-15 carbine program for over five decades, which eventually resulted in the M4 and M4A1.

 

That SF maybe didn't like the rifle as much during its utter nadir - when the ammo was shit and there was never enough of it - is not a black mark on the M16, but on the Army.

[Virdea]

You are 100% correct.  The author of the article you quote read one section of one of Kevin's many books, then went crazy just because it says that SF soldiers like the AK47.

 

What he (Trevithick) does not mention is they also LOVED the BAR.  So did communist guerillas.  I was surprised to see him quote Kevin because Kevin is a fan of the M16 and was even a force behind trying to get the Army to drop the 9mm in favor of 5.7mm.  He was also an advocate of the Spitfire.  I know this from my personal conversations with Kevin more than a decade ago.  

 

Just because the SF groups in the field did not like the early M16 because of its lack of ammo and poor quality ammo does not mean they rejected it for quality.  They just choose the better weapon given the facts of the moment.

[Meplat]

Another huge initial hurdle for the AR-15/M-16 was the hesitance of ordinance to issue sufficient magazines. 

It was not unusual to be issued one or two magazines, and  three or four boxes of ammunition. 

Boxes, not clipped.

 

Cleaning supplies and instructions were also scarce to non-existent.

 

One of my relatives mentioned how when he was issued an early M-16, there was no cleaning material.

He was told "You don't have to clean this rifle" by the issuing armorer.

 

He had my grandfather send him a .22 rifle cleaning kit and some basic cleaning supplies.  When I was talking to him about it, he mentioned "The thing worked fine if you took care of it. Ammo was often scarce though, and magazines were issued very sparingly.".

 

The whole story of how that rifle was issued, then maligned by the DOD is a case study in "how to fuck things up as thoroughly as possible".

[Sturgeon]

Another huge initial hurdle for the AR-15/M-16 was the hesitance of ordinance to issue sufficient magazines. 

It was not unusual to be issued one or two magazines, and  three or four boxes of ammunition. 

Boxes, not clipped.

 

Cleaning supplies and instructions were also scarce to non-existent.

 

One of my relatives mentioned how when he was issued an early M-16, there was no cleaning material.

He was told "You don't have to clean this rifle" by the issuing armorer.

 

He had my grandfather send him a .22 rifle cleaning kit and some basic cleaning supplies.  When I was talking to him about it, he mentioned "The thing worked fine if you took care of it. Ammo was often scarce though, and magazines were issued very sparingly.".

 

The whole story of how that rifle was issued, then maligned by the DOD is a case study in "how to fuck things up as thoroughly as possible".

 

QFT

 

I routinely get accused of being an AR-15 apologist, but the reality is that it's one of the best - if not the best - rifle designs in the world. It has features that virtually no other rifle has which give it longevity and lightness beyond what other designs are capable of.

The absolute cock-up that was the rifle's issuance in Vietnam has been held over its head ever since by those with an incentive to discredit the design: those who have an (often) inferior or (rarely) as good rifle to sell, and - hilariously - lubricant companies.

 

The result is the widespread reputation assassination of the finest American rifle design in history.

[Meplat]

Then you get the whole "shits where it eats" crowd, who I can only assume never dealt with a blowback subgun or one of the roller delayed H&K offerings (where one needs to have the skills of a proctologist, or a handy field portable solvent tank, to get really clean).

[Virdea]

A relative told me a story.  Being young, naive, and just mustered into the 34ID, he was about to head to town with a group of farm boys just like him when they hit England.  The division was having difficulties that English women LOVED US farm boys.  So the division medical staff issued condoms with 5 page instruction books for the soldiers.  

 

The condoms on the first page had three bold sentences.  Always Keep This Device ON Your Person When Engaging in Fornication, Visually Inspect This Device to Assure It Is Not Torn, and the cryptic warning, Remember, One Device, One Soldier.  Never Share.

 

They looked at the device and could tell that the device looked like could be easily torn, being made with a wax paper and having a rubber circle on the inside.  They decided for safety that the best place to keep it during "fornications" was in their socks.  They also decided that they could not remove their socks when they fornicated.  Off they went.  It took nearly a month before a First Sergeant discovered what they were doing and held a course on how to use these devices properly.

[Sturgeon]

A relative told me a story.  Being young, naive, and just mustered into the 34ID, he was about to head to town with a group of farm boys just like him when they hit England.  The division was having difficulties that English women LOVED US farm boys.  So the division medical staff issued condoms with 5 page instruction books for the soldiers.  

 

The condoms on the first page had three bold sentences.  Always Keep This Device ON Your Person When Engaging in Fornication, Visually Inspect This Device to Assure It Is Not Torn, and the cryptic warning, Remember, One Device, One Soldier.  Never Share.

 

They looked at the device and could tell that the device looked like could be easily torn, being made with a wax paper and having a rubber circle on the inside.  They decided for safety that the best place to keep it during "fornications" was in their socks.  They also decided that they could not remove their socks when they fornicated.  Off they went.  It took nearly a month before a First Sergeant discovered what they were doing and held a course on how to use these devices properly.

 

The insults you'll receive when you suggest that US soldiers were not well trained... And hell, when I say that, I make it clear I mean well trained on the M16 specifically, but it doesn't matter...

[LostCosmonaut]

 And hell, when I say that, I make it clear I mean well trained on the M16 specifically, but it doesn't matter...

 

If you phrase it as "not properly trained" instead of "not well trained" they (whatever the nebulous definition of "they" is on the internet) might take it a bit better, since you're shifting the blame to the higher ranking people (who most don't have a problem with insulting), instead of the grunts.

[Sturgeon]

If you phrase it as "not properly trained" instead of "not well trained" they (whatever the nebulous definition of "they" is on the internet) might take it a bit better, since you're shifting the blame to the higher ranking people (who most don't have a problem with insulting), instead of the grunts.

 

It doesn't make a difference, in my experience.

[Khand-e]

You are 100% correct.  The author of the article you quote read one section of one of Kevin's many books, then went crazy just because it says that SF soldiers like the AK47.

 

What he (Trevithick) does not mention is they also LOVED the BAR.  So did communist guerillas.  I was surprised to see him quote Kevin because Kevin is a fan of the M16 and was even a force behind trying to get the Army to drop the 9mm in favor of 5.7mm.  He was also an advocate of the Spitfire.  I know this from my personal conversations with Kevin more than a decade ago.  

 

Just because the SF groups in the field did not like the early M16 because of its lack of ammo and poor quality ammo does not mean they rejected it for quality.  They just choose the better weapon given the facts of the moment.

 

I would actually not be too opposed to that.

[Virdea]

Kevin Dockery was an early advocate of the FN 5.7 - he is one of the people who pushed it.

[Khand-e]

My wife used to use the QSZ-92 as a service sidearm when in the PAP, she liked it to the point that she quickly grew a fondness for the FiveSeven when coming here as you can't get the QSZ-92 for obvious reasons here.

 

She just doesn't like that it has more muzzle flash and a much louder report then the 5.8x21mm is all, but other then that she really digs it.

 

Edit: worth pointing out the first model she got to use was an Mk2

[Belesarius]

Sturgeon's post on the M14 and the last Berlin Crisis is up.

 

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/05/27/berlin-crisis-1961-the-beginning-of-the-end-of-the-m14/

[LoooSeR]

War Is Boring is shit, on the M16 at least.

War is boring also do a lot of not so good articles about Russian gear/vehicles. They are between "pop-history" and something like "objective view on things".

[LoooSeR]

"We played too much of CoD and designed this"

 

TALOS at SOFIC 2015.

 

 

Don't know why they showing it with that small plate. Is it body armor and carrier? That exoskeleton would be usefull to help to carry that armor and a lot of other stuff:

[Brick Fight]

I keep trying to see the message behind the digicam, but I've never been great at these puzzles.