Laser Shark

If they are okay with producing Leos in Spain and Greece, it’s hard to see why they wouldn’t approve of a factory in Poland too, especially if it means securing a contract for up to 800 Leo 2A7V and denying ground to competitors like Hyundai Rotem. Heck, even in Norway, where much less is at stake, it seems KMW are perfectly willing to let the local industry get a substantial share of the work if the reports are true.

If they are okay with producing Leos in Spain and Greece, it’s hard to see why they wouldn’t approve of a factory in Poland too, especially if it means securing a contract for up to 800 Leo 2A7V and denying ground to competitors like Hyundai Rotem. Heck, even in Norway, where much less is at stake, it seems KMW are perfectly willing to let the local industry get a substantial share of the work if the reports are true.

@Lord_James I think his argument was that you do not deploy tanks by themselves, but rather mix them together with mechanized infantry, anti-air vehicles, mortar carriers etc. in combined arms formations. So X number of tanks, let’s say 2000, might actually be too many if you cannot raise/fund enough supportive elements for more than half that number.

I have been summoned.
Please keep it civil, guys.
We like high quality posters spreading their knowledge, and there's a difference between disagreeing and being an ass about it, so please everyone take a moment to read through your posts before pressing that button, k? We've had enough friction here over the years.

Interesting discussion regarding K2/L2 but too much techical arguments.
 
You need to see it that way.
K2 is challenging L2 so it needs to be >way better< than L2 to win (not just a bit). Which is not the case
Whereas
- Leo 2A7V is available in numbers which has proven its capability.
- K2NO isn't existing in hardware right now which is a very high risk (now that Poland left) to go with for a "small" user nation.
- Topics like 130mm and APU are future music so far.
 
-> Big point - K2 is not NATO whereas all neighbours are using Leo 2A7 or 2A6.
 
-> Industry cooperation is the game winner in that acquisition (as Laser Shark already wrote -which KMW has already shown in Stridsvogn 122 project).
 
= So as long as Leo 2A7 fulfills the requested requirements there is 0% chance for the K2 to win except K2 offeres extraordinary industry cooperation.

Based on what? Did South Korea somehow get access to better CPUs and circuit boards in 2008 than Germany did in 2014? Did they somehow produce better thermals years before Germany? How did they end up with a better BMS?
 
The Leopard 2 doesn't have one BMS, it has nearly a dozen. While the South Korean BMS might be better than 1990s IFIS and the old FüInfoSys Heer, there are many different types of BMS integrated into the Leopard 2. Greece uses Rheinmetall's INCHINOS on the Leopard 2A6 HEL, Sweden has the TCCS (Tank Command and Control System), Spain has LINCE integrated into the Leopardo 2E, the German-Dutch Panzerbataillon 414 has tanks capable of operating either with IFIS or with the Dutch ELIAS, Switzerland has a RUAG-made BMS integrated into the Panzer 87WE, Singapore has integrated an Elbit BMS into its Leopard 2SG... the list is long. For the VJTF 2023, Germany has purchased new software from SitaWare... AFAIK the same system is used on the Leopard 2A7DK.
 
 
In terms of technology, I don't see how KMW's offer should be inferior to what Hyundai-Rotem can offer. The Leopard 2A7 is fitted with a Centurion i7 and a KommServer by ATM Computer (a subsidiary of KMW)... that's already overkill for a BMS. Combined these two computers have basically 100 times (or more) the computational power found on M1A2 Abrams and Stridsvagn 122 (pre-upgrade), which already had working types of BMS.
 
Given that Norway was one of the backers of NGVA, they probably demand a solution compliant with STANAG 4754; this would mean that both hardware and software of the current Korean BMS would be incompatible with the Norwegian requirements, whereas KMW already has a fully compliant solution. Software-wise I am 90% sure, that Norway will demand the incorpation of its own Kongsberg ISC, that has already been fielded on the recently upgraded Norwegian CV9030s.
 
 
Two things would need to happen before that:
KSTAM I or KSTAM II would have to enter production KSTAM I or KSTAM II would have to enter service with the ROKA While KSTAM sounds cool, neither KSTAM I nor KSTAM II has evolved beyond the prototype stage. KSTAM II btw. was developed in cooperation with Diehl Defence of Germany, which would have offered the solution on the European market, if development had ever finished.
 
In terms of firepower, K2 is at a disadvantage. Four NATO countries have already committed to the improved L/55A1 smoothbore gun (with two having already taken delivery of tanks with it), the older L/55 gun of the K2 won't allow firing the same high pressure ammunition. The K2 also lacks an ammunition data link to fire programmable ammunition; currently the ROKA uses the K280 HEAT-MP-T round, a conceptual copy of the American M830A1 MPAT round. This cannot compete against the DM11 HE-ABM round.
 
 
That is true, but only if equate "future proofing" with "weight until the GVW is reached". In reality, there are a lot of other factors to consider. Who will pay for the development of upgrades for the K2NO, if it was selected by Norway? Thanks to the LEOBEN community and the shared IP, the Leopard 2 will see upgrade options even once phased out by Germany. Rheinmetall already has showcased a new turret design with 130 mm gun and autoloader, which Germany will not adopt. Rheinmetall's Leopard 2 ATD and RUAG Leopard 2 MLU are great examples regarding how there will be upgrade options fo the Leopard 2, that haven't been paid by Germany or any other Leopard 2 user nation.
 
Growth potential will also be dependent on user base (a larger number of user is more likely to fund upgrades or to make the market attractive for third-party upgrade options like the Leopard 2 ATD and MLU) and on compability with the existing architecture. The NGVA is a big improvement for that.
 
In the end the weight will also depend on the configuration selected by Norway. Maybe they'll opt for a Swedish-style configuration with only a few tanks having mine protection kits (for use in peace-keeping missions) and the rest of them being 2-3 tonnes lighter.
 
 
A lot of claims, but many of them are hardly relevant. Radar/Laser warning systems are available for any tank as retro-fit option, most militaries however do not consider them cost-effective (I'd personally love to see them on every AFV). There are also RWS/LWS available for the Leopard 2.
 
Having a radar integrated into the turret has up- and downsides. A radar actively emitts radio waves that can be detected by the enemy from huge distances (depending on equipment) - that might be less relevant against North Korea, but against Russia Norway might be interested in a less emissive system.
 
The "better placement of the radar" is also a silly argument - then you are comparing a Leopard 2A7A1 with Trophy APS to a K2 Black Panther - without any APS. KAPS is immature and unproven; it is still in the prototype stage. It also likely would fail to be fully compliant with NATO STANAG 4822 and STANG 4686.
 
Auto-tracking is being incorporated into the Leopard 2Ax's FCS (it is also already available on the Leopard 2 ATD), it will be available in time of the Norwegian tank procurement program. I doubt that the hydropneumatic suspension of the K2 offers better recoil dampening than the hydraulic shock-absorbers of the Leopard 2, specifically given that the latter tank has greater suspension travel.
 
The funny thing about the EuroPowerPack is that it might have "Euro" in its name, but it is not used in Europe. There are no spare parts for it in Europe, they would be build-to-order. The Merkava 4's EPP is built in the United States (so that it can be paid with the money of American tax payers), the UAE's Leclerc tanks (contract finished more than a decade ago) and the South Korean K2 tanks (contract handled by an Asian MTU subsidiary) do not warrant a production line of the EEP in Europe. The latest K2 batch still keeps a Renk transmission btw.
 
 
That is not true, electronic systems can have a massive impact on weight and system complexity, specifically given the usually small power budget available in AFVs. The K2 only has a - rather poor - softkill APS. KAPS development has never been finished, the system is not ready for production.
 
 
Because Trophy is mature and cheap.
 
 
You cannot simply look at total contract value and then assume that this is identical to vehicle price. Hungary pays a lot more money, because they also want training of their crews (something that would be cheaper when switching from Leopard 2A4 to 2A7+), spare parts (which in some regards already exist in Norway thanks to the Leopard 2A4, Wisent and Leguan Leopard 2), infrastructure (already existing in Norway), ammunition, technical documentation, used tanks for training, etc.
 
The real costs of a tank become apparent through its lifetime. Developing upgrades, ordering spare parts, training and exercies. The Leopard 2 is the king in this regard, specifically for a country like Norway, which is part of NATO and is located next to its closest - Leopard 2 operating - allies. It might not be common in Asia, but NATO countries have very deep cooperation. Spare parts, ammunition and even new vehicles are often ordered either through OCCAR (a NATO agency) or as part of bi-/multi-national procurement programs in order to drive down costs. Training together with foreign soldiers or even in different countries is common, just like exchanging knowledge and - if required - spare parts.
 
Buying the K2 would mean major disadvantages for Norway.
 
 
Aside of the fact that KSTAM II only exists as showcase models for old expositions, it would not be able to penetrate the roof armor of the T-14. The T-14 does not have "soft ERA" on the roof. SMArt 155 has a 155 mm diameter warhead and can only penetrate 120-150 mm of steel armor; many modern MBTs can be fitted with add-on armor to stop that (including the Leopard 2). KSTAM II with its even smaller warhead is easy to counter. Defeating TOW-2B is possible with light-weight add-on armor (Roof-PRO and AMAP-R).
 
The T-14 is probably the tank with the best roof armor available today.

And now that it's been confirmed, I'd say that the K2's chances of being selected is getting comparable to that of a snowball in hell.

And now that it's been confirmed, I'd say that the K2's chances of being selected is getting comparable to that of a snowball in hell.

Damian's wet dream come true if this actually happens: https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2021/07/09/poland-could-purchase-m1-abrams-tanks-from-us/
 
It's probably worse news for Hyundai Rotem than KMW, though, since a significant contract like this one would have given the former an important foothold in the European tank market.

Damian's wet dream come true if this actually happens: https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2021/07/09/poland-could-purchase-m1-abrams-tanks-from-us/
 
It's probably worse news for Hyundai Rotem than KMW, though, since a significant contract like this one would have given the former an important foothold in the European tank market.

You wrote that Kongsberg claims the MCT-30/MT40 can be outfitted with an ATGM and APS. I merely pointed that this isn’t at all clear from the source you provided. In other words, you cannot use this source to strengthen your case.
 
Yes, I’m also well aware that Javelin missiles have been attached to the side of the MCT-30/RT40 in the past, but that doesn’t mean that it’s a good solution that any military would want to adapt. On the contrary, the U.S. Army never bothered attaching Javelins to their MCT-30s, and has instead fielded Strykers with CROWS-J to complement them. And despite showing up in photos of the ACV prototype, it doesn’t seem like such a solution will be making its way into the USMC either since they have apparently acquired the lighter and more compact MT20 instead, a turret that is likely less capable of mounting such equipment.
 
(Also, am I the only one struggling with getting my posts submitted lately?)

IMHO the Polish deal is the only chance for K2 to break into EU because it is itself large enough to justify building a factory there. Once such factory exists more European customers will definitely join but without Poland the other possible deals for K2 are too small in my opinion. 

You wrote that Kongsberg claims the MCT-30/MT40 can be outfitted with an ATGM and APS. I merely pointed that this isn’t at all clear from the source you provided. In other words, you cannot use this source to strengthen your case.
 
Yes, I’m also well aware that Javelin missiles have been attached to the side of the MCT-30/RT40 in the past, but that doesn’t mean that it’s a good solution that any military would want to adapt. On the contrary, the U.S. Army never bothered attaching Javelins to their MCT-30s, and has instead fielded Strykers with CROWS-J to complement them. And despite showing up in photos of the ACV prototype, it doesn’t seem like such a solution will be making its way into the USMC either since they have apparently acquired the lighter and more compact MT20 instead, a turret that is likely less capable of mounting such equipment.
 
(Also, am I the only one struggling with getting my posts submitted lately?)

Recent article about Hyundai Rotem’s efforts to secure the contract for the next Norwegian MBT.
 
A brief summary:
 

Recent article about Hyundai Rotem’s efforts to secure the contract for the next Norwegian MBT.
 
A brief summary:
 

Recent article about Hyundai Rotem’s efforts to secure the contract for the next Norwegian MBT.
 
A brief summary:
 

Recent article about Hyundai Rotem’s efforts to secure the contract for the next Norwegian MBT.
 
A brief summary:
 

Recent article about Hyundai Rotem’s efforts to secure the contract for the next Norwegian MBT.
 
A brief summary:
 

Norway ditches the MLU of the current ARTHUR counter battery radars in favour of buying new Thales GM200 MM/C multi mission radars, which will be placed on the ACSV G5.
 
Source: https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/group/journalist/press_release/norway-and-netherlands-partner-thales-multi-mission-radar-ground 
 
 

Norway ditches the MLU of the current ARTHUR counter battery radars in favour of buying new Thales GM200 MM/C multi mission radars, which will be placed on the ACSV G5.
 
Source: https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/group/journalist/press_release/norway-and-netherlands-partner-thales-multi-mission-radar-ground 
 
 

History of Marder as per Rolf Hilmes, published by Rheinmetall: https://rheinmetall-defence.com/de/rheinmetall_defence/systems_and_products/vehicle_systems/armoured_tracked_vehicles/marder50/index.php

Translated with google translate, so there are quite a few errors.
 

All Catherine thermal imagers use detectors from Sofradir (which is a joint-venture between Sagem and Thales, which was founded long before Pilkington Optronics was acquired by the latter). Stairs C was never finished, the original BGTI uses the Pluton-LW (with 288 x 4 detector elements) second-generation thermal detector.

This was shown to me recently:
http://www.physics.gsu.edu/qwip2006/Presentations/Thales Long Wave QWIP - Eric Costard.pdf
 
 
Namely pages 9 and 10. It lists the locations for each sight and the detector (both are french). Previously I assumed that Catherine was basically a rebrand of the Stairs C developed for the UK BGTI program but it would seem not!
 

Catherine range is British.