No, Nozh doesn't work as advertised

[Collimatrix]

On 1/14/2018 at 12:30 PM, Mighty_Zuk said:

Whether or not it actually pushes the rod (and consider the fact that the jet's velocity is several times higher than that of the rod), it cutting the rod is quite significant in itself. 

 

I did consider the relative velocities of jet and rod.  You're welcome to do the calculations yourself; there is simply no way that ERA can bat away APFSDS like that.

 

I am also unconvinced that cutting the rod accomplishes much.  In fact, deliberately allowing LRPs to separate into a series of shorter penetrators has been considered as a future penetrator concept.

[Bronezhilet]

So I have been doing a bunch of simulations and indeed Nozh does not work as advertised.

 

But it doesn't due to the reasons @Collimatrix and I predicted.

 

I'm going to do some more simulations to get a clearer picture. To be continued...

[Bronezhilet]

Preview:

 

 

[Mighty_Zuk]

What am I seeing here mate?

[Bronezhilet]

A rough model of a linear shaped charge about to hit a long rod penetrator after penetrating a 15mm thick steel plate.

[Collimatrix]

5 hours ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

What am I seeing here mate?

 

Postmodern art.

[Toxn]

3 hours ago, Collimatrix said:

 

Postmodern art.

Have some respect.

It's clearly post-post modernist, from the functionalist school.

[Bronezhilet]

@Collimatrix @Mighty_Zuk @SH_MM @LoooSeR @Militarysta @Xlucine

 

 

 

 

Yeah I took 'some' liberties with the jet, but that mainly has to do with this being a rough first look at Nozh, I'll do a more properly shaped jet later.

 

 

tl;dw: Yes, a copper jet can cut through a wolfram penetrator but the jet is not nearly long enough.

 

Edit: This is also a frictionless simulation so the jet penetrating the steel plate doesn't slow it down at all. All in all, this is a best case scenario for Nozh.

[Mighty_Zuk]

http://milnavigator.com.ua/українські-танки-отримають-новий-дин/

 

Credit on the finding to Stayh78 from waronline.org forum.

Translation for each page directly above it.

 

Spoiler

 

1.1 Dynamic Protection (ERA) "Nozh".

Main Battle Tank T-64BM Bulat, the backbone of Ukraine's armored might, entered service in the year 2004 with a built in ERA system "Nozh". 

 

Some results of tests of "Nozh" ERA mounted on a 140mm thick armor plate. On the left; APFSDS shell BM-42 Mango. On the right; EFP from 152mm shell. Residual penetration of 20mm from the 152mm shell.

 

Modernized combat vehicle T-72B1-1050 with Nozh.

 

Effectiveness of the Ukrainian ERA "Nozh" in combat conditions.

After examining 55 tanks that were deployed in combat zones, 17 cases of Nozh activation were observed and documented.

Impact from a tandem warhead Kornet ATGM between the first and second ERA blocks on the left side of the turret of the T-64BM1 tank.

The tandem warhead ATGM Kornet was neutralized completely. Once the jet pierces the main armor the turret is gone. The tank remained operational.

 

Multiple hits from AT weapons on the UFP: BM-15 (19) - 2 hits. "Fagot" - 1 hit. PG-7 (9) - 2 hits. 

4 activations of the Nozh ERA complex. Nearby blocks did not detonate. Very little residual penetration. Only replacement of the ERA blocks was required.

 

The ERA "Nozh" worked. No residual penetration. If the jet pierces into the armor, the hull is gone.

The side armor panel was deformed and requires repairs. The tank remained operational.

 

Impact of a 125mm HEAT shell between the 2nd and 3rd armor blocks on the right side of the BM Bulat tank's turret.

Nozh was activated in the 2nd and 3rd blocks. Some residual penetration in the applique armor. No residual penetration inside the turret main armor. Repair - only the ERA blocks on the turret. Tank remains operational.

 

Impacts from ATGM "Fagot" and PG-7 grenades. Nozh was activated twice. 4 blocks detonated. Some of the blocks were blown off by the ATGM and grenades. The remaining 9 blocks remain in working condition. 

Residual penetration was only 6mm-12mm. The tank didn't lose any capability.

 

Impact from ATGM "Fagot".

Nozh was activated once. The rest of the elements were activated by the blast.

 

All combat vehicles on which the ERA system "Nozh" was activated, have preserved their combat capabilities and remained operational.

Even when multiple hits are encountered, and multiple blocks are activated, the crew are unaffected.

In its capabilities, the Nozh ERA far exceeds the defensive capabilities of the Kontakt family.

 

Anti-tandem-warhead ERA "Duplet".

The Duplet ERA, along with the BM Oplot tank with its built-in blocks of Duplet, have entered service. The Oplot with the ERA system Duplet is on order in a G2G contract.

 

Some results of the tests of the Duplet:

On the left; Tandem warhead PG-7VR on the side armor module. Residual penetration 45mm, armor not penetrated.

On the right; APFSDS BM-42 Mango. Armor not penetrated. Residual penetration of 20mm on the side. 60mm on something I don't understand.

 

Comparison of characteristics on the reduction of penetration capabilities, in percentage:

Dark blue - Duplet (Ukraine).

Light blue - Nozh (Ukraine).

Olive green - Relikt (Russia).

Light green - Kontakt 5 (Russia/USSR).

Dark green - Kontakt 1 (Russia/USSR).

Orange - Blazer (Israel).

Red - Type ERA-3 (China).

 

From left to right:

Unitary warhead shaped charge. 

Tandem warhead shaped charge.

APFSDS.

EFP.

 

Nozh is 1.5 to 2.5 times more capable than the Blazer and Kontakt-5 ERA. Duplet protects from all types of threats. Although effective protection systems for light armored vehicles don't exist yet.

The residual penetration is sufficient to pierce the armor of light armored vehicles, whose average armor thickness is 10mm-30mm.

 

 

For light vehicles, we recommend the Nozh-L and Raketka.

The Nozh-L provides an 80% probability to defeat unitary shaped charge warheads and EFPs. Armor breaks excluded.

It has an aerial density of 200 to 250kg/m^2.

 

Results of tests of Nozh-L.

Against PG-9C - armor against 12.7mm bullets wasn't pierced. Residual penetration 4mm. Against EFP it wasn't pierced, but bent by 6mm.

 

Raketka provides additional protection against tandem warheads with the same success probability of no less than 80%. It has an increased aerial density of 300 to 350km/m^2.

 

Results of testing of Raketka.

Against PG-7VLT (NATO) it wasn't pierced (side of BMP). Against PG-7VR it wasn't pierced but had residual penetration of 4mm. Same armor plates as before.

 

Possible variants of ERA protection for armored posts.

 

Possible variants for MTLB.

 

[Ronny]

On 4/7/2018 at 4:19 AM, Mighty_Zuk said:

http://milnavigator.com.ua/українські-танки-отримають-новий-дин/

 

Credit on the finding to Stayh78 from waronline.org forum.

Translation for each page directly above it.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

1.1 Dynamic Protection (ERA) "Nozh".

Main Battle Tank T-64BM Bulat, the backbone of Ukraine's armored might, entered service in the year 2004 with a built in ERA system "Nozh". 

 

Some results of tests of "Nozh" ERA mounted on a 140mm thick armor plate. On the left; APFSDS shell BM-42 Mango. On the right; EFP from 152mm shell. Residual penetration of 20mm from the 152mm shell.

 

Modernized combat vehicle T-72B1-1050 with Nozh.

 

Effectiveness of the Ukrainian ERA "Nozh" in combat conditions.

After examining 55 tanks that were deployed in combat zones, 17 cases of Nozh activation were observed and documented.

Impact from a tandem warhead Kornet ATGM between the first and second ERA blocks on the left side of the turret of the T-64BM1 tank.

The tandem warhead ATGM Kornet was neutralized completely. Once the jet pierces the main armor the turret is gone. The tank remained operational.

 

Multiple hits from AT weapons on the UFP: BM-15 (19) - 2 hits. "Fagot" - 1 hit. PG-7 (9) - 2 hits. 

4 activations of the Nozh ERA complex. Nearby blocks did not detonate. Very little residual penetration. Only replacement of the ERA blocks was required.

 

The ERA "Nozh" worked. No residual penetration. If the jet pierces into the armor, the hull is gone.

The side armor panel was deformed and requires repairs. The tank remained operational.

 

Impact of a 125mm HEAT shell between the 2nd and 3rd armor blocks on the right side of the BM Bulat tank's turret.

Nozh was activated in the 2nd and 3rd blocks. Some residual penetration in the applique armor. No residual penetration inside the turret main armor. Repair - only the ERA blocks on the turret. Tank remains operational.

 

Impacts from ATGM "Fagot" and PG-7 grenades. Nozh was activated twice. 4 blocks detonated. Some of the blocks were blown off by the ATGM and grenades. The remaining 9 blocks remain in working condition. 

Residual penetration was only 6mm-12mm. The tank didn't lose any capability.

 

Impact from ATGM "Fagot".

Nozh was activated once. The rest of the elements were activated by the blast.

 

All combat vehicles on which the ERA system "Nozh" was activated, have preserved their combat capabilities and remained operational.

Even when multiple hits are encountered, and multiple blocks are activated, the crew are unaffected.

In its capabilities, the Nozh ERA far exceeds the defensive capabilities of the Kontakt family.

 

Anti-tandem-warhead ERA "Duplet".

The Duplet ERA, along with the BM Oplot tank with its built-in blocks of Duplet, have entered service. The Oplot with the ERA system Duplet is on order in a G2G contract.

 

Some results of the tests of the Duplet:

On the left; Tandem warhead PG-7VR on the side armor module. Residual penetration 45mm, armor not penetrated.

On the right; APFSDS BM-42 Mango. Armor not penetrated. Residual penetration of 20mm on the side. 60mm on something I don't understand.

 

Comparison of characteristics on the reduction of penetration capabilities, in percentage:

Dark blue - Duplet (Ukraine).

Light blue - Nozh (Ukraine).

Olive green - Relikt (Russia).

Light green - Kontakt 5 (Russia/USSR).

Dark green - Kontakt 1 (Russia/USSR).

Orange - Blazer (Israel).

Red - Type ERA-3 (China).

 

From left to right:

Unitary warhead shaped charge. 

Tandem warhead shaped charge.

APFSDS.

EFP.

 

Nozh is 1.5 to 2.5 times more capable than the Blazer and Kontakt-5 ERA. Duplet protects from all types of threats. Although effective protection systems for light armored vehicles don't exist yet.

The residual penetration is sufficient to pierce the armor of light armored vehicles, whose average armor thickness is 10mm-30mm.

 

 

For light vehicles, we recommend the Nozh-L and Raketka.

The Nozh-L provides an 80% probability to defeat unitary shaped charge warheads and EFPs. Armor breaks excluded.

It has an aerial density of 200 to 250kg/m^2.

 

Results of tests of Nozh-L.

Against PG-9C - armor against 12.7mm bullets wasn't pierced. Residual penetration 4mm. Against EFP it wasn't pierced, but bent by 6mm.

 

Raketka provides additional protection against tandem warheads with the same success probability of no less than 80%. It has an increased aerial density of 300 to 350km/m^2.

 

Results of testing of Raketka.

Against PG-7VLT (NATO) it wasn't pierced (side of BMP). Against PG-7VR it wasn't pierced but had residual penetration of 4mm. Same armor plates as before.

 

Possible variants of ERA protection for armored posts.

 

Possible variants for MTLB.

 

That is very impressive, thank you

[Wiedzmin]

old question to old thread 

 

 

OFL120F1 - DM43 copy - DM43 is 680-685mm long(from tip to fins)-> no way core is anything close to "751"

 

and "we found only small part", well... whole round just bounce off(like on any other Heavy ERA) and?

 

 

this makrs could be from "mighty knives"... + maybe onle real big cut on right side

[Lord_James]

Oh, do we have bot support on this forum, too?

@N-L-M, @Sturgeon, @LoooSeR

[N-L-M]

Done