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15 hours ago, Sturgeon said:

This fucking light tank... Here's the Sandy Mk. 3:
 

YopNTQO.png

 

The elliptical turret is much better protected... But also heavier. Weight is up to 22.6 tons gross, more than double what the Sandy was originally supposed to be. Since the original airdroppable concept seems unachievable now, I guess the Sandy is better suited as a tank for fighting Deseret? But I think the Donward can do that too, so I'm not sure there's much point to this anymore. The biggest problem the Sandy has right now is power: It was designed to fit an engine roughly equivalent to a Detroit 6V53T, which is a 275-310 hp engine or so, but at nearly 23t that isn't nearly enough power. I'm currently looking into flat engines that might work, hoping to cram at least 550 hp into the thing. If I can't do that, I'll have to make a totally new hull. Ugh.

Speaking of a bigger hull, I figured I'd see how this looked since le pancake turret is pretty well armored:

avvIEHr.png

 

It looks... Special. Doesn't seem to be much merit to it, either, since it's nearly as heavy as the original turret version. This turret does have me interested in a low weight medium, though, something that would come out equivalent to a T-55.

Something I've been wondering about in relation to cheap-n-cheerful mediums: what components add the most man-hours to building a tank, and how do they scale?

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4 hours ago, Toxn said:

Something I've been wondering about in relation to cheap-n-cheerful mediums: what components add the most man-hours to building a tank, and how do they scale?

 

 

I think it's heavily dependent on manufacturing base.  I haven't seen a general breakdown, but just off the top of my head:

-Welding thick steel armor has definitely proven to be a problem, e.g. IS-3, several German tanks.

 

-The Germans actually had problems with drilling the holes for traditional, transverse torsion bars.  Apparently, for them, switching to the Porsche external torsion bar suspension saved a lot of man hours.  I've never heard of anyone else having that problem.

 

-I also recall reading that fuel injectors were a bottleneck for the Germans when they looked at going to dieselized tanks.

 

-The fire control systems were giant cost contributors on Soviet tanks, especially ones with more complex FCS like the T-80.

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4 hours ago, Collimatrix said:

 

 

I think it's heavily dependent on manufacturing base.  I haven't seen a general breakdown, but just off the top of my head:

-Welding thick steel armor has definitely proven to be a problem, e.g. IS-3, several German tanks.

 

-The Germans actually had problems with drilling the holes for traditional, transverse torsion bars.  Apparently, for them, switching to the Porsche external torsion bar suspension saved a lot of man hours.  I've never heard of anyone else having that problem.

 

-I also recall reading that fuel injectors were a bottleneck for the Germans when they looked at going to dieselized tanks.

 

-The fire control systems were giant cost contributors on Soviet tanks, especially ones with more complex FCS like the T-80.

Thanks.

 

At a guess I'd say that, for a given component complexity, man hours scale linearly and resource usage scales volumetrically with increasing size. My other guess would be that increasing complexity exponentially increases man hours.

 

So doubling the size of a design would just make it take twice as long to build. But doubling the component count would take four times as long.

 

You also seem to be suggesting that there are process bottlenecks which massively increase man hours until they are overcome. These also seem to be situational, meaning here that from the outside they seem to show up at random.

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1 hour ago, Jeeps_Guns_Tanks said:

So everyone should do up so marketing material, and then come up with a plan for how you would bribe the proper officials to consider the merits of your design more carefully. What is the hooker and blow situation in 2239?

Downsides: the coca plant is extinct.

Upsides: two-headed hookers are a thing.

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10 hours ago, Collimatrix said:

...

 

-The fire control systems were giant cost contributors on Soviet tanks, especially ones with more complex FCS like the T-80.

Probably have something to do with shiload of gold and silver used (like several kg in total for rare earth materials IIRC). I lost a small chart with rare materials used in those things, will try to ask on otvaga, as it is pretty interesting.

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17 hours ago, Collimatrix said:

 

 

I think it's heavily dependent on manufacturing base.  I haven't seen a general breakdown, but just off the top of my head:

-Welding thick steel armor has definitely proven to be a problem, e.g. IS-3, several German tanks.

 

-The Germans actually had problems with drilling the holes for traditional, transverse torsion bars.  Apparently, for them, switching to the Porsche external torsion bar suspension saved a lot of man hours.  I've never heard of anyone else having that problem.

 

-I also recall reading that fuel injectors were a bottleneck for the Germans when they looked at going to dieselized tanks.

 

-The fire control systems were giant cost contributors on Soviet tanks, especially ones with more complex FCS like the T-80.

Welding aluminum would also be more costly.  Need to have the surface oxide layer grinded away. Also welding aluminum in general is harder because of its low melting point, high heat capacity and good thermal conductivity. 

Machining aluminum is however, much easier than steel or harder alloys. 

Drilling and cutting hard steel plates is also a huge pain in the ass. I hate stainless steel, and it is not even close to the hardness of armor steel. 

 

Automation would probably fix most of these issues. Robotic welders would accomplish a "perfect" weld, drill jigs would drill out all the holes on on side of the hull simultaneously. 

 

Casting and a good supply of tungsten bits would greatly decrees man hours needed.

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looks a bit familiar....
r2bRjBl.png

For some unknown reason the renderer crapped out on me so I had to change the coloring on the Norman.
Anyhow, short of vents and rough shapes of equipment in the engine bay, the Norman is DONE. Some details are stand-ins for things I don't have the time to model properly; for example, the loader's MG should be on a skate ring, not a pintle, and the commander's MG is supposed to have linkages for elevation and firing (enabling its use under armor, Abrams-style). Also the bustle stowage rack is not modelled.
I may not have time to properly model a light tank, which means I might have a low-visuals submission for that part.
Full writeup will come later, when I again have time.

By the way, if anyone's wondering, the frontal turret spaced armor isn't a shot trap, as it's the same thickness as the hull roof underneath it, and therefore anything capable of penetrating the roof after bouncing will penetrate the spaced armor, not bounce.

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3 hours ago, Sturgeon said:

@N-L-M what are we looking at for all-up weight on that thing?

22.9 tons of armor (may include some suspension components like mounting points, and includes ammo bulkheads)
including suspension, tracks, armament, fuel, ammo, and drivetrain, 37.5 tons all up.
Assuming an extra 5 tons for unaccounted for components, I get 42.5 tons all up, 39.9 curb.

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5 hours ago, Jeeps_Guns_Tanks said:

the WOT T110 thread?

 

I’ve seen that mentioned on this forum before, but I can’t find any meme-y threads about the T110 on the WoT forum, but some people are saying they want it buffed or removed from the game, now: 

 

http://forum.worldoftanks.eu/index.php?/topic/675756-anyone-playing-with-t110-e5-wot-can-delete-this-tank/ 

 

i guess the meme is the typical WoT forum’er is retarded? 

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16 minutes ago, Lord_James said:

 

I’ve seen that mentioned on this forum before, but I can’t find any meme-y threads about the T110 on the WoT forum, but some people are saying they want it buffed or removed from the game, now: 

 

http://forum.worldoftanks.eu/index.php?/topic/675756-anyone-playing-with-t110-e5-wot-can-delete-this-tank/ 

 

i guess the meme is the typical WoT forum’er is retarded? 

For reasons which are convoluted (but not particularly interesting) the T110 thread on the old WoT forums got to be a special 'protected' space from the idiotic moderators who ensured that only weebs and wehraboos ever got to say anything more involved than 'I luv Wargaming'.

 

Because the world is not a nice place, this meant that the autistic shitbirds who felt they owned the forum promptly squatted there and talked about anime/jerked each other off for the rest of the existence of the forum rather than any flowering of free speech occurring.

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      @Toxn
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    • By Sturgeon
      The LORD was with the men of Deseret. They took possession of the hill country, but they were unable to drive the people from the plains, because they had chariots of steel.
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      BULLETIN: ALL INDUSTRIAL-MECHANICAL CONCERNS
       
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      Submissions will be accepted in USC only.
       
       
      Supplementary Out of Canon Information:
       
       
      I.     Technology available:
      a.      Armor:
      The following armor materials are in full production and available for use. Use of a non-standard armor material requires permission from a judge.
      Structural materials:
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      Requires mounting brackets of approximately 10-30% cassette weight.
      Must be spaced at least 1 sandwich thickness away from any other armor elements to allow full functionality. 95% coverage.
      The details of how to calculate armor effectiveness will be detailed in Appendix 1.
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                                                                  iii.     Tungsten is available for tooling but not formable into long rod penetrators. It is available for penetrators up to 6 calibers L:D.
                                                                  iv.     Texan shaped charge technology - 4 CD penetration for high-pressure resistant HEAT, 5 CD for low pressure/ precision formed HEAT.
                                                                   v.     The subsidy-approved GPMG for the Lone Free State of Texas has the same form factor as the M240, but with switchable feed direction.. The standard HMG has the same form factor as the Kord, but with switchable feed direction.
      c.       Mobility
                                                                    i.     Engines tech level:
      1.      MB 838 (830 HP)
      2.      AVDS-1790-5A (908 HP)
      3.      Kharkov 5TD (600 HP)
      4.    Detroit Diesel 8V92 (400 HP)
      5.    Detroit Diesel 6V53 (200 HP)
                                                                   ii.     Power density should be based on the above engines. Dimensions are available online, pay attention to cooling of 1 and 3 (water cooled).
                                                                  iii.     Power output broadly scales with volume, as does weight. Trying to extract more power from the same size may come at the cost of reliability (and in the case of the 5TD, it isn’t all that reliable in the first place).
                                                                  iv.     There is nothing inherently wrong with opposed piston or 2-stroke engines if done right.
      d.      Electronics
                                                                    i.     LRFs- unavailable
                                                                   ii.     Thermals-unavailable
                                                                  iii.     I^2- Gen 2 maximum
                                                                  vi.     Texas cannot mass produce microprocessors or integrated circuits
                                                                 vii.    Really early transistors only (e.g., transistor radio)
                                                                viii.    While it is known states exist with more advanced computer technology, the import of such systems are barred by the east coast states who do not approve of their use by militaristic entities.
       
      Armor calculation appendix.
       
      SHEET 1 Armor defeat calculator 4in-54 1200 yd
       
      SHEET 2 Armor defeat calculator 4in-54 2000 yd
       
      SHEET 3 Armor defeat calculator 6in HEAT
       
      Range calculator
       
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