The Small Arms Thread, Part 8: 2018; ICSR to be replaced by US Army with interim 15mm Revolver Cannon.

[Sturgeon]

I think some of my commenters have a hard time figuring out what "side" I'm on, since I apologize for both the AK and DI AR-15, and think piston guns are silly frivolities.

[Meplat]

I think some of my commenters have a hard time figuring out what "side" I'm on, since I apologize for both the AK and DI AR-15, and think piston guns are silly frivolities.

"side?"

 

Tell them to grow the fuck up.  It's not about "sides".

[Sturgeon]

"side?"

 

Tell them to grow the fuck up.  It's not about "sides".

 

I have. Everybody wants to take a side, Meplat.

[Tied]

Not all of our hats are ten gallons BoBabyoilifant

[Belesarius]

Buy whatever gun makes you happy.  If you like piston over DI, then get a piston gun. 

 

I have an unreasoning want for a MR308.  Not because it's the best gun or whatever, but it's what I'd want to buy if I could buy it as a range toy.  But I'd still prolly grab an AK or AR first.

[Meplat]

I have. Everybody wants to take a side, Meplat.

"everybody" is fucking retarded.

 

If one is not mature enough to understand, appreciate and comprehend the simple actions of the firearms you're critiquing, I'm not sure I want them fondling them.

 

Not in my immediate area at least.

 

Wait til I'm in my tank.

 

-Okay-

 

Brum.

Fuck you, ND's..

[Khand-e]

To be fair though, Newman is like the Grade A example of why H&K's super fanboys irritate the shit out of me.

 

I can't honestly decide if SIG Sauer or IWI has a more annoying following.

[Walter_Sobchak]

Ok, I have what might be a newb question.  What's the deal with the Israeli Galil?  Seems like a pretty decent rifle in concept.  Did Israel move away from it to the M16/M4 platform because the US guns were part of aid packages or because the US guns had significant advantages (I would guess weight)?

[Sturgeon]

The Galil is extremely heavy in such a way that's more of a comfort blanket (this 5.56 rifle is 9 pounds unloaded, it MUST be durable and reliable!) than indicative of any real advantage. They're also more expensive to make than AR-15s.

Not bad rifles at all, but very heavy and expensive for what they do.

[Walter_Sobchak]

The Galil is extremely heavy in such a way that's more of a comfort blanket (this 5.56 rifle is 9 pounds unloaded, it MUST be durable and reliable!) than indicative of any real advantage. They're also more expensive to make than AR-15s.

Not bad rifles at all, but very heavy and expensive for what they do.

So basically they took the AK platform (via the Valmet) and converted it to 5.56 without reducing the weight? 

 

I think this is where Tied comes in trumpeting the superiority of the AK-74....

[Sturgeon]

So basically they took the AK platform (via the Valmet) and converted it to 5.56 without reducing the weight? 

 

I think this is where Tied comes in trumpeting the superiority of the AK-74....

 

I am going to write this here to answer your question, but you've got me interested so this post may disappear to feed a TFB article. If you want to save the info, copypasta it. Also, please note this is my off-the-cuff answer and includes a lot of speculation on my part. If I publish an article for TFB, it will be much more factual, and some details may change.

It's a little more complicated than that. Kalashnikov designed the AK to be made with metal stampings, but the process chosen was tricky and the rejection rate of early "Type 1" stamped AKs was high, so an interim pattern was developed, which used a forged and milled receiver that was more expensive to make and heavier (although incidentally had much better service life) but would do until the stamping process was perfected. It was by the mid 1950s, and the AKM model began production in the latter half of that decade. Also in the 1950s, the Finnish began developing their own AK-derived weapons, which became the Valmet series. Initially, probably for production reasons as much as the sisu factor, the Finns decided to create their own milled receiver pattern, which was incorporated into the Rk. 62 (still in service with Finland, and not slated to be replaced any time soon).

In the late 1960s, the Israelis started a program to procure their own home-grown rifle, two major designers submitted designs. One was the famous Uziel Gal, designer of the Uzi submachine gun, and the other was his colleague, Yisrael Galili, who assisted in the Uzi's design. Uziel came up with a completely new design, the Gal rifle, while Yisrael proposed variants of the AK pattern that Israel had faced in the Six Day War, called the Balashnikov.

 

A Balashnikov prototype, second from bottom. Note that it is made off a Type 2 forged-milled receiver.

Galili's rifle was really nothing more than a warmed-over AK in 5.56mm, with very, very few differences. In fact, it is my understanding that the rifles were essentially made of cannibalized Russian and Chinese parts with new barrels and some additional fittings, like the bipods. The Balashnikov was selected over the Gal (which was somewhat controversial, especially since Gal's was an excellent - and pretty much all-original - design), and so far as I know it's around this stage that Valmet steps into the picture.

It seems that during the production engineering stage, the Finns courted the Israelis, and Galili's Balashnikov design was thrown completely out of the window, and replaced with... The Rk. 62, with a handful of changes. A bipod was added, based on the one on Galili's prototype, as well as a folding stock, carry handle, and left-side selector, but these were the only features from Galili's prototype that actually made it to the final design; the rest (including most of the much-lauded improvements over the AK) came from the Valmet, except the upswept charging handle which was neither a feature of the Balashnikov prototypes nor the Valmets. All of these additions, needless to say, dramatically increased the weight of the rifle. For reference, an M4 Carbine is about 6.2 pounds unloaded, an AK about 7.0 pounds, a stamped Valmet about 8 pounds, and a Galil weighs over nine-and-three-quarter pounds.

I recall hearing that the first Galils in the preproduction run were actually made in Finland, which wouldn't surprise me, but I'll have to check on that.

Regardless, it's a convoluted story that left quite a few people butthurt including Gal himself and also just about every soldier that had to hump the stupidly heavy rifle (as heavy as an FAL, but in a much smaller caliber). It didn't take the Galil to be largely supplanted by foreign-bought AR-15 derivatives, despite it being an iconic weapon of Israel for many years.

Having said that, it's a reliable, decent weapon, and at least it's not an INSAS.

[Sturgeon]

Also, here's Seth Cane's history of the Galil: http://www.forgottenweapons.com/rifles/galil-arm/

[Walter_Sobchak]

Also, here's Seth Cane's history of the Galil: http://www.forgottenweapons.com/rifles/galil-arm/

Very interesting.  I got curious about the Galil after watching some of the TBF-TV videos on AK variants.  Still, give the Galil some credit for that bottle opener feature. 

[Walter_Sobchak]

In reading about the development of the Galil, it was also interesting to read how dissatisfied the Israelis were with the FN FAL rifle.  

[Khand-e]

Considering the Israelis actually adpoted the Tavor as a front line service weapon, I wouldn't put too much stock in what small arms they do or don't like.

[Sturgeon]

In reading about the development of the Galil, it was also interesting to read how dissatisfied the Israelis were with the FN FAL rifle.

The FAL was pretty sensitive to sand, but it was also large, heavy, and had significant recoil. I suspect the change had as much to do with wanting a 5.56mm rifle as it did with being dissatisfied with the FAL.

[Walter_Sobchak]

Considering the Israelis actually adpoted the Tavor as a front line service weapon, I wouldn't put too much stock in what small arms they do or don't like.

I'm going to guess that the Israeli military establishment of the 1950s - 1970s was probably a bit more pragmatic and efficient than the system that exists now.  I don't have any evidence to support this claim, other than the impression that now that they have their own entrenched weapons industry, a certain amount of favoritism and corruption will creep in. 

[Toxn]

I am going to write this here to answer your question, but you've got me interested so this post may disappear to feed a TFB article. If you want to save the info, copypasta it. Also, please note this is my off-the-cuff answer and includes a lot of speculation on my part. If I publish an article for TFB, it will be much more factual, and some details may change.

It's a little more complicated than that. Kalashnikov designed the AK to be made with metal stampings, but the process chosen was tricky and the rejection rate of early "Type 1" stamped AKs was high, so an interim pattern was developed, which used a forged and milled receiver that was more expensive to make and heavier (although incidentally had much better service life) but would do until the stamping process was perfected. It was by the mid 1950s, and the AKM model began production in the latter half of that decade. Also in the 1950s, the Finnish began developing their own AK-derived weapons, which became the Valmet series. Initially, probably for production reasons as much as the sisu factor, the Finns decided to create their own milled receiver pattern, which was incorporated into the Rk. 62 (still in service with Finland, and not slated to be replaced any time soon).

In the late 1960s, the Israelis started a program to procure their own home-grown rifle, two major designers submitted designs. One was the famous Uziel Gal, designer of the Uzi submachine gun, and the other was his colleague, Yisrael Galili, who assisted in the Uzi's design. Uziel came up with a completely new design, the Gal rifle, while Yisrael proposed variants of the AK pattern that Israel had faced in the Six Day War, called the Balashnikov.

 

A Balashnikov prototype, second from bottom. Note that it is made off a Type 2 forged-milled receiver.

Galili's rifle was really nothing more than a warmed-over AK in 5.56mm, with very, very few differences. In fact, it is my understanding that the rifles were essentially made of cannibalized Russian and Chinese parts with new barrels and some additional fittings, like the bipods. The Balashnikov was selected over the Gal (which was somewhat controversial, especially since Gal's was an excellent - and pretty much all-original - design), and so far as I know it's around this stage that Valmet steps into the picture.

It seems that during the production engineering stage, the Finns courted the Israelis, and Galili's Balashnikov design was thrown completely out of the window, and replaced with... The Rk. 62, with a handful of changes. A bipod was added, based on the one on Galili's prototype, as well as a folding stock, carry handle, and left-side selector, but these were the only features from Galili's prototype that actually made it to the final design; the rest (including most of the much-lauded improvements over the AK) came from the Valmet, except the upswept charging handle which was neither a feature of the Balashnikov prototypes nor the Valmets. All of these additions, needless to say, dramatically increased the weight of the rifle. For reference, an M4 Carbine is about 6.2 pounds unloaded, an AK about 7.0 pounds, a stamped Valmet about 8 pounds, and a Galil weighs over nine-and-three-quarter pounds.

I recall hearing that the first Galils in the preproduction run were actually made in Finland, which wouldn't surprise me, but I'll have to check on that.

Regardless, it's a convoluted story that left quite a few people butthurt including Gal himself and also just about every soldier that had to hump the stupidly heavy rifle (as heavy as an FAL, but in a much smaller caliber). It didn't take the Galil to be largely supplanted by foreign-bought AR-15 derivatives, despite it being an iconic weapon of Israel for many years.

Having said that, it's a reliable, decent weapon, and at least it's not an INSAS.

And then we bought the rights from the Israelis, replaced the wood with plastic and made it a bit longer.

[Sturgeon]

And then we bought the rights from the Israelis, replaced the wood with plastic and made it a bit longer.

 

Yeah, and by the combined panache of South Africa and Israel, the Galil somehow became super popular despite being pretty "meh".

[Khand-e]

"It's like an AK with AR build quality!/Like an AR with AK Reliability!" -The most parroted shit about every modern rifle ever.

[Sturgeon]

Mech, we were farting about earlier regarding SCHV pistol rounds, but really if I had to spitball on where things are going, I'd guess something like this:

 

That is a 9x22mm cartridge firing a saboted .22 cal 2.7g (42 gr) frangible projectile at an estimated muzzle velocity of 2,050 ft/s from a 3.95" barrel (like a G19).

It uses the same case head as 9x19mm, and could use the same magazines (probably), thus requiring only a barrel swap. Operating pressure is a toasty 45,000 PSI, says Powley (which likes to overestimate pressure for pistol cartridges - I really am pushing Powley beyond its capacity here):

 

Total projectile weight is 3 grams, including the sabot. That means a total muzzle energy of just 585 Joules, and given that 9mm NATO is capable of something like 650-700 Joules from a Glock, I don't feel this is a stretch. If anything, it's an underestimate.

2.7 grams of frangible mass (both the jacket and the core, it's designed like a Mk.255 RRLP) is a lot more than M855A1, or even Mk. 318, and close to M80A1. So, up close, a round like this could have awesome lethality for a pistol, with the main sticking points being penetration. Of course, penetration cuts both ways; I bet a round like this would not be such a danger to interior walls as a standard JHP pistol round, either.

Now, you might be wondering - why 9x22? Why not 9x19? Well, truth is I started by making a backwards compatible 9x19 projectile, but I found that the center of gravity of the projectile was way outside the case! This is bad, as it means your round could potentially have problems engraving correctly in the rifling, causing inaccuracy. Hmmm... Inaccuracy with sabots... Where have I heard that before?

Anyway, my solution was the laziest: Just lengthen the case until the center of gravity of the projectile was inside it. There are other solutions, some possibly compatible with existing 9x19mm ammunition, or more importantly, more compatible with 9x19 magazines.

But that's where I think things are headed.

[Toxn]

Yeah, and by the combined panache of South Africa and Israel, the Galil somehow became super popular despite being pretty "meh".

To be fair, that's a lot of panache right there.

 

Edit: interestingly; the gun I probably see most often in my day-to-day life is the R5 as every police officer, CIT guard and private security guard freaking loves it.

[Sturgeon]

To be fair, that's a lot of panache right there.

 

Edit: interestingly; the gun I probably see most often in my day-to-day life is the R5 as every police officer, CIT guard and private security guard freaking loves it.

 

The R4/R5 is super popular with Hollywood, I am guessing thanks to SA arms rental companies and SA being a major filming location.

It's actually kind of weird to hear that reflects reality. I mean, it makes sense, but still. Hollywood rarely reflects reality.

 

So, it occurs to me that I have kind of reflected a tone poo-pooing the Galil/R4. That's not really how I feel. The panache has worked. Two of the rifles I want most in the world are the Rk. 95 TP and the R5.

[Khand-e]

for a civilian round, I was thinking a 6x30mm cartridge with either a standard caliber spitzer point style round or a .204 caliber sabot loading (AP, frangible or aluminum based ballistic tipped rounds ideally) at around 55,000 PSI (not a huge stretch, 5.7x28mm runs around 52,000 memory serve me.) because, as we established from that discussion Stancrist started on the 5.8x42mm, people literally think 0.15mm would make some massive difference in terminal performance for whatever reason, the difference in effect between .22, 23 and .24 caliber is obviously trivial in reality, but if a slight increase in caliber is what gets people to buy it, then when in Rome....

 

The second was it's really close to the dimensions of the 5.7x28mm (and FN couldn't potentially go back to ammo nazi status on it), which is good, as the FiveSeven can beat the shit out of nearly any other design in magazine capacity. Also, I originally chose the design based on the 6x35mm KAC that's been decapitated by 5mm and was even drawing it up, but considering the KAC as far as I know has a base diameter of 9.6mm like the .221 Fireball, I thought it over and decided something around 8.5mm would be better for a pistol sized weapon where you want maximum capacity and a lower ammo weight.

 

One thing about sabots though is, while I do think they're a really good idea for future pistol designs, on the civilian market, it *might* give the ATF a reason to bitch about it as an armor piercing handgun round no matter what bullet type it's loaded with, they've done or attempted dumber things regarding the subject before so I wouldn't put it past them, mainly considering how much flak the 5.7x28mm got around it's release even without AP rounds and still gets to some extent to this day. However for law enforcement and military use I'd absolutely recommend them, though your cartridge may be better for those purposes since it already uses established NATO and popular law enforcement calibers.

 

I'll try and draw up a design including bullet weights and lengths, I have a few in mind I'd like to plug into Powley's to see how they do.

[Toxn]

The R4/R5 is super popular with Hollywood, I am guessing thanks to SA arms rental companies and SA being a major filming location.

It's actually kind of weird to hear that reflects reality. I mean, it makes sense, but still. Hollywood rarely reflects reality.

 

So, it occurs to me that I have kind of reflected a tone poo-pooing the Galil/R4. That's not really how I feel. The panache has worked. Two of the rifles I want most in the world are the Rk. 95 TP and the R5.

 

It gets really strange because we have a shittonne of ATMs here (along with every spaza shop and streetside stall having a card reader) so you bump into these dudes all the time.

 

They all seem to get the same uniform (in blue or black): cap, button-up shirt, trousers, black lace-up boots, flak jacket (with a few mags in the pouch), R5 and fuck-off stare. There might be a sidearm, utility belt or sunglasses if the guard was feeling really creative that day.

 

These guys are letting the side down by taking SMGs and shotguns to work.

 

 

Obligatory image of someone's day going badly wrong: