The Small Arms Thread, Part 8: 2018; ICSR to be replaced by US Army with interim 15mm Revolver Cannon.

[Sturgeon]

Here's John Lott on murders and gun ownership, BTW. He very carefully examines the problem and doesn't really draw a conclusion, saying that lower murder rates are "associated" with higher gun ownership, but that the problem is very difficult to tackle for a number of reasons he discusses.

Now, since I'm on my computer, I'll explain why I told you to go fuck yourself:

 

In any case, the answer is pretty self-evident here. Owning a gun does pretty much squat for your chances of getting murdered. If it were otherwise, you would talk of nothing else.

 

You and I actually agree that murder rates are not strongly correlated with gun ownership, at least given the sets of data at our disposal - and so does John Lott above. Now, I think that owning a gun is useful for more than just range time, although I do use them mostly for that and many of my guns are exclusively toys, essentially. Why I told you to go fuck yourself, though, is this idea that "if you had any proof, you wouldn't shut up about it". Um, no, I am not an activist, and I'm not out to change anybody's mind. I don't usually argue with people about gun control, and while everybody knows I'm not a fan, I don't typically take positions or hash out statistics. Our current argument isn't even one about gun control - neither you have backed any sort of gun bans, nor am I under the impression that you have. So "I would talk of nothing else" is horseshit. It's dishonest and patronizing to say so, and it shows a remarkable ignorance of what I am all about.

Ergo, go fuck yourself.

[Sturgeon]

Mobile as far as viewing it or posting it?  Quotes here are screwy for me too.

Mobile for posting. I am on PC right now.

[Bronezhilet]

(I dunno about those kneepads...)

 

 

More Peshmerga training!

[Sturgeon]

Is the situation in any way analogous to that of the citizen gun owner?

 

Yes. That's why we carry guns.

[Tied]

So today i learned from Toxn that its silly for a rape victim to carry a gun since statistically its more than likely she wont get raped twice and she is more likely to die from it than anyone elses gun

I mean in the grand schemem of things it dosent matter

I guess we should start gassing old people. Since in the grand scheme of things their lives are far less likely to contribute anything.

Statistics dont matter you evil fucktard. Have some empathy.

[Brick Fight]

So today i learned from Toxn that its silly for a rape victim to carry a gun since statistically its more than likely she wont get raped twice and she is more likely to die from it than anyone elses gun

I mean in the grand schemem of things it dosent matter

I guess we should start gassing old people. Since in the grand scheme of things their lives are far less likely to contribute anything.

Statistics dont matter you evil fucktard. Have some empathy.

 

 

What the hell are you talking about?

[Tied]

In any case, before I quit in a huff about Sturg's strange ideas about logic and statistics, I'm going to make my political position clear again. I am not arguing that we take people's guns away to stop suicides, nor that we take them away because they don't stop murders. They'd do little for the one and nothing for the other, and in any case your cheese burger habit is more likely to kill you overall. I'm arguing that guns are, in the grand scheme of things, a frivolity. They're toys, essentially. At least, for any society not currently engaged in a civil war.

[Brick Fight]

The shadowboxing that goes on around here is really weird.

[Sturgeon]

The shadowboxing that goes on around here is really weird.

Well, I dunno, we're all a bunch of soulless sperglords with communication issues, so maybe that has something to do with it.

Anyway, I think Tied got to the heart of the problem with saying that guns are just novelties because something something statistics.

That's a bit like saying seatbelts are just novelties because it's very unlikely you'll get into a crash. Maybe so, but it still pays to be prepared for that eventuality.

I mean, heck, one of the reasons Tox's theory there doesn't check out for me is that I've had more of what I would consider DGUs than I can count on one hand. In contrast, I've only been in one car accident.

So I would say that owning guns has done nearly as much for my safety as wearing my seatbelt.

[Belesarius]

On the other hand, I work Security for a living and in 15 years have never felt I've been in a situation where a firearm was needed.  Different needs for different areas.

[Sturgeon]

On the other hand, I work Security for a living and in 15 years have never felt I've been in a situation where a firearm was needed.  Different needs for different areas.

 

Right, see that's the thing. I don't even carry here in Shreveport (currently, I never switched over my CO carry license, but I'm working on that), I feel very safe here (I should note I live in pretty much the best part of town - there are definitely some pretty bad areas here). In Trinidad, though, I was carrying all the time, and in Houston it was so bad I basically glued myself to my car where I kept multiple guns, including long guns.

It's a bit strange to talk to people from outside North America (especially the US, but in my experience a lot of Canadians pretty much "get it", too), because the default assumption out in the world seems to be that nobody will be responsible and well-trained, so they shouldn't have guns. Here in the US - not everywhere (certainly not the megalopoleis), but this is especially true of rural areas - the default assumption is that you will have a firearm, and therefore you need to be responsible and well-trained with them.

The execution of this in my country is obviously imperfect, hence there are a significant number of accidents, misuses, and suicides, but that's the general ethos in a lot of areas, especially Texas. And I like it that way. Everybody should be armed, and the onus should be on everyone to be responsible and trained with their firearms.

 

Bonus: At the risk of rambling, it was interesting, I was talking to Nikolas Lloyd (lindybeige) via email once, and we were discussing weapons. I don't remember how we got on the subject (likely my fault), but we got to talking about guns in the US. He said: "I don't want to live in a place where everyone's carrying a gun." Hmmm. I agree with his sentiment (if restated: I don't want to live in a place that's so dangerous and chaotic that everyone has to carry a gun), but no, I don't agree with that. Maybe I've read too much Heinlein, or something (I was brought up in a libertarian household - that probably contributed, too), but I really do prefer a world where everyone is armed and potentially dangerous. I know that will sound insane to some people - it did to Lloyd - but yeah, I do, and a lot of Americans feel the same way. Everyone's life is in their own hands, everyone has agency, and there are consequences for being irresponsible. To a certain extent this is romantic, but I think it's also pragmatic. There's no litmus test for whether someone is an idiot or not quite like handing them a gun, and if everyone's around guns all the time, it becomes real damned obvious who the village idiots are.

[Tied]

Fuck i carry everywhere. Its not a matter of paranoia as much as general level headness on my part

[Collimatrix]

Dubious homebrew weapon of the Libyan Civil War:

\

 

 

from Forgotten Weapons.

[LoooSeR]

 

Iraqi unit fully outfitted with Croatian VHS-2 rifles 

[LoooSeR]

RIANOV Eagle sight with ballistic computer

 

 

EF88 with... something on top of it.

[LoooSeR]

[Collimatrix]

 

The Benelli inertia system.  This is a very good animation; a lot of professionally-produced animations of weapon cycling have stupid errors, like this one:

A lot of people consider the Benelli system to be an example of recoil operation.  I disagree.  In normal recoil operation the barrel moves relative to the receiver, and this is the primary moving mass that needs to be considered.  In the Benelli system, mass added anywhere to the gun can make it not work.  Even adding a scope or shell carrier or what have you to the shotgun can make it heavier by enough that it does not recoil hard enough to cycle the system.

[Alex C.]

Fun little Lee-Navy video I put together:

 

 

 

[Vanagandr]

It's a bit strange to talk to people from outside North America (especially the US, but in my experience a lot of Canadians pretty much "get it", too), because the default assumption out in the world seems to be that nobody will be responsible and well-trained, so they shouldn't have guns. Here in the US - not everywhere (certainly not the megalopoleis), but this is especially true of rural areas - the default assumption is that you will have a firearm, and therefore you need to be responsible and well-trained with them.

 

I think I talked about it in some post I made about traveling to Germany, but everyone I talked to about American gun culture while I was overseas seemed to think it must be terrifying living in a land where people are allowed to own guns just for the sake of owning guns. I told them about having a friend who owns a non-fully automatic AK, and occasionally shooting it, and people would give me this look like I was absolutely crazy to willingly hold something as ~~dangerous~~ as a gun, or they would ask me why I wanted to shoot it, as if there was any more reason to shoot an AK at my shitty old phone than to absolutely destroy my shitty old phone. Some of them also kind of implicitly implied that the only reason to go target shooting is if you are practicing to go on a shooting spree, which made me kind of salty. The difference in mindset is fascinating to me, because up to that point I don't know that I had ever met anyone who wasn't used to the idea of people being able to own guns. I wish I had talked to the Russian I met about guns, just to see if he had the same take as Tied on guns.

[Tied]

I think I talked about it in some post I made about traveling to Germany, but everyone I talked to about American gun culture while I was overseas seemed to think it must be terrifying living in a land where people are allowed to own guns just for the sake of owning guns. I told them about having a friend who owns a non-fully automatic AK, and occasionally shooting it, and people would give me this look like I was absolutely crazy to willingly hold something as ~~dangerous~~ as a gun, or they would ask me why I wanted to shoot it, as if there was any more reason to shoot an AK at my shitty old phone than to absolutely destroy my shitty old phone. Some of them also kind of implicitly implied that the only reason to go target shooting is if you are practicing to go on a shooting spree, which made me kind of salty. The difference in mindset is fascinating to me, because up to that point I don't know that I had ever met anyone who wasn't used to the idea of people being able to own guns. I wish I had talked to the Russian I met about guns, just to see if he had the same take as Tied on guns.

ha 

 

i think loosver may, just may, like firearms too

 

call it a hunch 

 

most people ive met like firearms, but im sort of a redneck 

[Vanagandr]

It wouldn't surprise me either if Russia in general doesn't feel the same way about guns that most of Europe seems to. It should be born in mind that I only ever got onto the topic of guns with maybe twenty people overall, so it's a small sample size.

[Bronezhilet]

I think I talked about it in some post I made about traveling to Germany, but everyone I talked to about American gun culture while I was overseas seemed to think it must be terrifying living in a land where people are allowed to own guns just for the sake of owning guns. I told them about having a friend who owns a non-fully automatic AK, and occasionally shooting it, and people would give me this look like I was absolutely crazy to willingly hold something as ~~dangerous~~ as a gun, or they would ask me why I wanted to shoot it, as if there was any more reason to shoot an AK at my shitty old phone than to absolutely destroy my shitty old phone. Some of them also kind of implicitly implied that the only reason to go target shooting is if you are practicing to go on a shooting spree, which made me kind of salty. The difference in mindset is fascinating to me, because up to that point I don't know that I had ever met anyone who wasn't used to the idea of people being able to own guns. I wish I had talked to the Russian I met about guns, just to see if he had the same take as Tied on guns.

You should never ever come to the Netherlands then. If you mention you like guns you can almost see them reach for a telephone to call the police to report a potential terrorist.

 

Ffs, my government(-ish) funded uni screws me over whenever they can. Most likely because I like guns. And therefore not fit to function in society.

[Alex C.]

What if you mention that you enjoy participating in the time honored tradition of hunting? Or what if you mention you are a participant in olympic shotgun sports?

[Bronezhilet]

Doesn't stop everybody from thinking guns are scary things from the devil designed to kill everybody on earth.

 

 

 

Okay, that was an exaggeration. But people really don't like guns here. People generally accept hunters, but of course there are animal hugging hippies who think otherwise. But I guess you have those in the US as well.

I mean, uni knows I want to work for the MoD, yet they still screw me. They probably want the military to defend them using longswords or whatever.

[Vanagandr]

You should never ever come to the Netherlands then. If you mention you like guns you can almost see them reach for a telephone to call the police to report a potential terrorist.

 

Ffs, my government(-ish) funded uni screws me over whenever they can. Most likely because I like guns. And therefore not fit to function in society.

 

I mean I can always just play the ignorant American card and explain how in my native land it is common to get involved in a gunfight in the morning before I can even walk through the bat-wing doors at the bar and brothel where I work as the quiet shady character who sits at in the back with boots kicked up on the table and hat drawn over the face.