The Small Arms Thread, Part 8: 2018; ICSR to be replaced by US Army with interim 15mm Revolver Cannon.

[Alex C.]

Nate can you give me a rundown on this?

 

 

 

 

I pulled three 7.92x33 bullets. One PPU, one FNM, and one Grafs.

 

Why would the PPU and FNM have a hollow cavity in the rear? Is this uncommon? Wouldn't it effect accuracy? Did the original ammo have the cavity?

[Tied]

Im gonna go out on a limb and say its to fit in maor powder

 

 

 

The only way it would effect accuracy is its drop-off distance due to the change in weight 

[LostCosmonaut]

The ones with the cavity might be more aerodynamically stable, since the cg is further forward while the cp stays in the same place.

[Alex C.]

I would be worried about the combustion flaring the jacket out and having it hug the rifling pretty deeply. I can bend it easily with my fingers.

[T___A]

So apparently this was the original proposal of what would become the 2nd amendment:

 

A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the People, being the best security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed, but no one religiously scrupulous of bearing arms, shall be compelled to render military service in person.

 

I wonder what effects it would've had during the civil war and ww2.

[T___A]

And here is the 2nd amendment equivalent from the OG bill of rights that was rejected:

 

That the people have a right to bear arms for the defense of themselves and their own state, or the United States, or for the purpose of killing game; and no law shall be passed for disarming the people or any of them, unless for crimes committed, or real danger of public injury from individuals; and as standing armies in the time of peace are dangerous to liberty, they ought not to be kept up; and that the military shall be kept under strict subordination to and be governed by the civil power

[Sturgeon]

Bob Faxon is a big ol' baby:

 

 

 

Over at TFB, we have integrity, and we always give a true and honest assessment of a company's products. That's why I've been expressly forbidden from writing about Faxon products in any way. :\

[Collimatrix]

Nate can you give me a rundown on this?

 

 

 

 

I pulled three 7.92x33 bullets. One PPU, one FNM, and one Grafs.

 

Why would the PPU and FNM have a hollow cavity in the rear? Is this uncommon? Wouldn't it effect accuracy? Did the original ammo have the cavity?

 

None of the wartime 7.92x33mm bullets had such a pronounced cavity at the rear.  There is a little bit of a lip where the lead core doesn't quite go as far back as the jacket, but that's typical of military FMJs.

 

I don't think that the jacket would tend to hug the sides of the bore, minie ball style.  The empty part of the jacket is the boat tail, and is smaller in diameter than the bore.  So it has pressure on the outside and on the inside, which means there is no net outward force on it.

[Sturgeon]

Thanks, colli, I didn't get a chance to address that yet.

Basically, those projectiles are probably designed around the original KzPtr 43 bullet jacket, which was originally steel-cored. With a lead-core only (cheaper for Prvi, I'm sure), they ended up with a cavity in the rear. The Grafs projectile has been designed around the lead core, resulting in a flat-based profile.

 

The (familiar late, lead-cored one, for the cartridge pedants reading this) M43 ball is essentially a clone of the wartime 7.92x33 bullet, so the original KzPtr bullets have a similar steel-core-with-lead-sleeve construction.

 

Once Meplat sends me some more 7.92, I'll dissect one for you.

[Collimatrix]

German wartime bullet design for the 7.92x33mm is a bit of a mess.  They changed the design several times, designed a bunch of weird specialist bullets (including an explosive bullet!), and late-war were looking at hilariously slapdash emergency bullets made of sintered iron powder.

 

But yes, the most common bullet is pretty similar to familiar commie 7.62x39mm.  There's a mild steel core surrounded by a thin layer of lead with a conventional cupronickel jacket drawn over it.

[Meplat]

 

Once Meplat sends me some more 7.92, I'll dissect one for you.

Will try and look this weekend, if I'm free from work.

Trying to pull some OT to hasten the decline of the mortgage on the bunker.

[Alex C.]

Thanks for the info gents.

[Sturgeon]

German wartime bullet design for the 7.92x33mm is a bit of a mess.  They changed the design several times, designed a bunch of weird specialist bullets (including an explosive bullet!), and late-war were looking at hilariously slapdash emergency bullets made of sintered iron powder.

 

But yes, the most common bullet is pretty similar to familiar commie 7.62x39mm.  There's a mild steel core surrounded by a thin layer of lead with a conventional cupronickel jacket drawn over it.

 

You're absolutely right, but we could talk about the different variations well into next week, and nobody wants that.

[Collimatrix]

I was surprised to see how many different loads and bullets they managed to develop and produce (albeit in pathetic numbers) in the short amount of time they had.

 

The 10.75x29mm variant cartridge is probably my favorite.

[Sturgeon]

Also it is fascinating how ludicrously under equipped the USA was before and during WWI. I mean, sure we gave the Entente a bunch of supplies and whatnot but I have always felt our military presence is very overblown. Of course you always hear Belleau Wood, Belleau Wood!

 

 

 

Oh, I agree, but having said that, personal equipment-wise there's probably no team I'd rather be on in 1917-1918 than the USA.

[Alex C.]

In regard to our equipment do you mean the individual soldier's kit or a broader more logistical scope?

[Tied]

Thats a big rifle

 

 

4GRU

[Sturgeon]

In regard to our equipment do you mean the individual soldier's kit or a broader more logistical scope?

I mean M1917 best rifle of all years.

[Donward]

Also it is fascinating how ludicrously under equipped the USA was before and during WWI. I mean, sure we gave the Entente a bunch of supplies and whatnot but I have always felt our military presence is very overblown. Of course you always hear Belleau Wood, Belleau Wood!

 

 

 

 

Yes and No.

 

It was agreed that the main imperative in World War 1, once the United States entered the fray was to get as many warm bodies as fast as possible from the United States into France.

 

The French and the British wanted to simply fold the American doughboys into their own ranks. However, the politics of President Wilson and the General Pershing dictated that the Americans would be fighting over in France under their own officer and flag, even if this meant a delay in getting American troops trained at divisional and corp level of combat.

 

In reality, both occurred in that American troops were committed in penny packet units at times. Also the United States had a significant number of black troops in World War 1 who served in combat roles with the French who had African colonial troops of their own fighting on the Western Front. 

 

In terms of heavy weaponry, cannons, tanks, machineguns and aeroplanes, the French and British were more than capable at this point of supplying the Americans.

 

Finally, as for the Americans having a major impact on the Great War, the issue is also complicated. In terms of actual combat, the British and French did the majority of the fighting on the Western Front all of the way up to 1918. The final German Offensive, the vaunted Kaiserschlacht in the Spring of 1918 was primarily stopped by British and French troops, the Americans still making up a small percentage of total manpower. The Americans only lost 53,000 killed and 116,000 wounded in a war that took 17 million lives. 

 

Where the Americans were important is that our presence showed the German High Command that continuing the war was futile. Germany was run by professional military officers and they knew that even though Germany had conquered Romania, Serbia, Greece, Russia and occupied most of Belgium, were beating the Italians and had conquered all of the Northeast of France, they had lost the war and there was no way to prevent an invasion of Germany by 1919 or 1920. This isn't taking into account the threat of internal revolution as well. You got to know when to hold em and know when to fold em. 

 

This is opposed to the morons who ran Germany in World War 2 who had lost the war essentially by 1942 (and arguably 1941 when the initial invasion of the Soviet Union came up short of Moscow).

[Donward]

And here is the 2nd amendment equivalent from the OG bill of rights that was rejected:

 

When you are divining the original intent of the Founders, it is important to keep things in perspective in regards to arguments between the Federalists and anti-Federalists.

[Belesarius]

NZDF has selected the G17 as their next service pistol. 1900 ordered. They are replacing SIG 226s purchased in 1992.

 

http://www.janes.com/article/56422/new-zealand-defence-force-selects-glock-17-pistol

[Sturgeon]

NZDF has selected the G17 as their next service pistol. 1900 ordered. They are replacing SIG 226s purchased in 1992.

 

http://www.janes.com/article/56422/new-zealand-defence-force-selects-glock-17-pistol

 

Not linking my article that went up four days ago? For shame...

[Sturgeon]

Alrighty folks, I've just written a post on how to become eligible for the Civilian Marksmanship Program. Goes up tomorrow!

[Khand-e]

Not linking my article that went up four days ago? For shame...

 

OH OH, is it time to reap the tears of SIG fanboys who can't possibly admit that Glock isn't the pistol Antichrist?

 

Let's find out!

[Donward]

The article consists simply of Nathaniel's email address, where he will personally answer every "How I CMP And Get Free 1911 And Garand????" with a thoughtful and unique 1,000 word rejoinder, individual tracking down the names and contact information from CMP clubs and their officers in each of the states along with offering a letter of introduction.