The Small Arms Thread, Part 8: 2018; ICSR to be replaced by US Army with interim 15mm Revolver Cannon.

[Toxn]

Alright guys, I turned up some pretty exciting stuff on Soviet assault rifles recently (thanks in part to Daniel's guidance on what book to choose, but a lot of internet sources helped, too). But first, let's have a quick laugh at some hoch logic:

Well that sucked.

[Meplat]

Having seen enough homeless Vietnam War veterans who were younger than my dad in the hood, I am very skeptical in regards to this sort of thing. 

I've encountered a couple that at best, were a gleam in their daddy's eye, in 1975.

[D.E. Watters]

Alright guys, I turned up some pretty exciting stuff on Soviet assault rifles recently (thanks in part to Daniel's guidance on what book to choose, but a lot of internet sources helped, too).

 

With that out of the way, I recently learned that the talented designers of the Soviet Union during or immediately after World War II produced not one, not two, not three, but NINE distinct assault rifle designs which underwent testing. An article describing to some degree these rifles will go up Wednesday morning; I cranked it out as quickly as I could. 

 

Here is a forum page/post thingie with some photos of prototype Russian assault rifles (some from WWII and some after). 

Here is... I dunno what it is, but it was useful.

That book was totally worth the <$8 purchase price, wasn't it?

[Sturgeon]

It was, though I won't have fully utilized it until I do a dedicated article on the Sudaev.

[D.E. Watters]

I need to find you a copy of Kalashnikov Arms.  However, the new Kalashnikov Encyclopaedia also looks interesting.

 

(For those who are curious, I found Nathaniel a stupid cheap copy of The Trophies of the Red Army During the Great Patriotic War 1941-1945, Volume 1.  Ironically, I note that some of you are slagging a novel by the same fellow that provided the English translation.)


 

[Sturgeon]

This post was actually something preexisting based on collected posts from Armory Exotic, but it grew greatly, and towards the end I dipped into Trophies where I found a wealth on info on the Sudaev. That means there will be a Sudaev mega post coming up sometime soon, especially if I can get the collaboration of Max Popenker.

[Donward]

When you do, make sure it is kept featured at that top so it doesn't get buried underneath some rehash of an old .22plinkster or IraqVetAteAteAteAte post.

[Sturgeon]

That's not up to me, though.

[Brick Fight]

Am I weird for genuinely liking the look of the OTs-14?

[Tied]

Im pretty sure at Tula took Ivan Cheskonov's writings on assault rifles a bit too seriously, seeing as the OT is literally built for sex 

[Sturgeon]

I am now ready for the gargoyle apocalypse!

 

Can't tell you how happy I am to see this:
 

[Sturgeon]

BTW, the above rifle will be the baseline comparison weapon for my M1A review(s).

[Brick Fight]

Jealous. Every time I got close to affording a grand, my funds would get eaten up by some emergency

[Sturgeon]

Get one from the CMP. Mine is a Service Grade (the highest non-auction grade), and it cost me $730 shipped.

Also, I've been a (second-time) M1 owner for about five hours and already I'm starting to hate Garandsmithing. Example:
 

Problem: The en-block takes a huge amount of force to seat all the way.

 

Solution: File down the bullet guide (no, really).

 

It feels like I'm constructing a lightsaber, because only a Jedi could figure this shit out.

[Donward]

Nice. Field grade Garand?

 

Edit Ninja'd

 

And yeah, I've noticed with my stepdad's that it is finicky with the en bloc clips it accepts. It's not mine so I can't fix it.

[Sturgeon]

The thing with the M1 is that even if you have that exact problem, the answer may not actually be that solution. The M1 is a horrible mess of combined function, which means if a chain is broken, it could be any one of the bazillionty links...

[Donward]

Yeah. Some of the "original" en bloc clips that he got from the wholesaler that sold him his Garand - it has the "sniper" scope on it and is a pretty dandy affair - work just great. We picked up some gypo clips from a couple places and those don't work worth a damn. Honestly, we haven't shot it much in the past five years or more since work and real life have gotten in the way and it is a safe queen.

[Sturgeon]

Shame, that. M1s are great shooting irons.

Next on my agenda is to resize the stock to proper shape and then apply the proper finish of raw linseed oil, then I will seal it. This should result in me having a rifle that looks, handles, and shoots the way I want it to and, you know, actually works.

[Donward]

I'm sure it's something fiddly and it could be just an issue of getting clips that aren't crap. Like I said, the original 8 or so ones that came with it work fine. It's been low on the list of "to do" things. Sadly, it has been a tight last half decade financially with a lot of family stuff (good and bad) that have precluded taking the old Garand out. As for accuracy, the M1 even with the old offset "sniper" scope is more accurate than I could make it shooting off hand. 

[Sturgeon]

Troy cannot into AKs:

[Sturgeon]

I initially read the first couple paragraphs of this post and dismissed it as nonsense (at the time I had research to do), and posted it up for derision in the main forum. However, the narrative this guy spins is very detailed for bullshit, so can anyone tell me where he's getting his info and how reliable his sources may or may not be?

 

Quote

The conventional storyline is that Soviet Army impressed with StG-44 decided it wanted to have something similar. It held the trials in which a dozen or so of highly experienced and talented designers had competed and got their asses handed to them by hereto unknown tank driver and his ingenious amalgamation of known and proven principles gracefully wrapped into a bullet- (and grunt-) proof, cost-effective package. Sometimes the story goes as far as to credit MTK with actually inventing something. Even MTK himself hints at being the daddy of a rotary bolt. Now, brilliantinventor Kalashnikov can be easily dispelled with a simple: what is it exactly that he invented? My objective here is to address brilliant designer Kalashnikov. Here we go.

The specs for the new rifle were laid out by a customer, an agency at the time called GAU (Glavnoe Artilleriiskoe Upravlenie- Chief Artillery Directorate) the procurement arm of the Ministry of Defense. Those specs, TTT3131 (Tactical Technical Requirements #3131) were based mainly on a rifle called AS-44 by A.I. Sudaev. In addition to being one of the brightest small arms designers, as evidenced by his PPS-43, arguably the best subgun of WW2, Sudaev, academy graduate, also spoke fluent German which undoubtedly was of great benefit to him as he ventured into the area of assault rifles. AS-44 and derivatives, while unserviceable, went through army trials and defined quite clearly what should be expected from any future development. They were also the testing media for the round itself. Sudaevs successor to AS-44, called OAS, was absolutely slated to become the next issue rifle for the Red Army, unfortunately Major died in his early thirties in 46.

Trials in question were conducted at Tshurovo proving grounds and were divided into 2 phases. Phase one was to weed out the designs that were so flawed any subsequent development was useless. The winners of the Phase Uno were given short time to iron out the shortcomings revealed during initial testing. While going from Phase 1 to Phase 2 competitors were prohibited from major redesigns. Only minor updates were allowed. Phase Two was intended to see if the winners of Phase 1 had improved sufficiently to meet GAU specs and would be worthy to be recommended for army trials or should be send back for further polishing or outright disqualified. 
Competitors were not allowed to see each others designs. Proving grounds staff was to impartially conduct the tests and submit results to the test team boss, who in turn was to make a report to and answer the questions from the so called Scientific Technical Council of 20 some small arms experts. The Council, convened on Jan10, 1948, would then render its verdict.

The man most directly responsible for the myth known as MTKs genius is Major (at the time) Vasilii F. Lyutyi. He was the Boss, the man in charge of the test team who directed actual trials and submitted his findings and recommendations to the Council. Talented and experienced gun designer himself Lyutyi, of course, was barred from participating in the competition of which he was a chief judge. When he didnt run tests at Tshurovo range he worked in one of the GAUs research centers known as NII-3 (Nauchno Issledovatelskii Institut- Institute of Scientific Research). Wanna guess who was working for him at the time? Right. Mr. Kalashnikov. Himself. Just plucked out of Kazakhstan where he was building prototypes so primitive nobody even bothered to test fire them (Lyutyis words).

Phase 1. Being the creative genius of all times MTK of course tries to pattern his creation after the only gun that A) he has access to   is proven to work i.e. StG-44, while replacing tilting bolt with an in vogue rotary lock-up. 


Hugo Schmeisser he is not though and the resulting gun turned out exactly what a copy of StG-44 by an optimistic amateur with 7th grade education should be: POS also known as AK-46.

I suspect the reason it worked at all was that Kalashnikov was assisted by a highly qualified designer Zaitsev. Typical Soviet MO is not unlike that of Wallace and Grommit. Zaitsev was MTKs Grommit. 

MTK fondly recollects how evaluators were particularly impressed with the originality of his rotary bolt. Fact of the matter is rotary bolt was used by several competitors and if memory serves me well was actually a mandated feature (along with a stamped receiver, availability of both folding and fixed stock versions and some other such niceties) for Phase 2.

Anyway, test-engineer Pchelintsev was in charge of testing of the design submitted by MTK during the first phase. In short order he disqualified it. And here things start getting interesting.

MTK appeals to his boss Lyutyi who simply takes Pchelintsevs report and revises the conclusion. Out of fundamental failure with a stroke of a pen AK46 transforms into a promising product that just needs some itsy-bitsy TLC. Of course, all jokes aside, Lyutyi understands that AK-46 lives on borrowed time, no amount of improvement can save this POS. MTK, the oblivious Wallace he is, still thinks his design had advanced on its merits and tries to improve on it. Lyutyi and Zaitsev quickly bring him back to Earth and Lyutyi personally takes charge of the design. As he has to stay behind the curtains he assigns his old friend and colleague, another experienced engineer, Major (at the time) Deikin to assist Kalashnikov directly. Who is Deikin? Why, he is just one of three representatives of the customer who are supervising actual trials and is also a member of the Council.

In his memoirs Col. Lyutyi plainly and unequivocally states that three of them (Lyutyj, Deikin and Kalashnikov) collaborated on the design that became to be known as AK-47. He forgot Zaitsev, but whos counting. 

Incidentally, according to Lyutyis widow Kalashnikov tried to bribe her so that she would not release her late husbands memoirs.

So what magic enabled Lyutyi-Deikin-Kalashnikov-Zaitsev to squeeze an entirely new (and this time working!) design into the time frame allocated for minor modifications? OK, from this point on Im speculating but the truth is in the pudding. Lyutyi and Deikin, both being judges (Lyutyi being the judge), had access to all the competing prototypes and all the technical documentation. What they did was quite simple, they zeroed in on the most likely winner and stole his design. 

At the time the design slated to take the cake was AB-46 by Bulkin from Tula. Bulkin, btw, was the first to use the rotary bolt in this type of weapon in '44.

^^^
Bulkins concept as worked over by Lyutyi and Co. More commonly known as AK47

All of the 3 designs that entered Phase2 failed to meet GAU specs. AB-46 and AK-47 being conceptual twins had the same satisfactory reliability and the same unsatisfactory accuracy. Seldom mentioned is the fact that AK-47s receiver had cracked during the testing. Still, Lyutyi managed to successfully navigate the Scientific Technical Council clear of facts and to convince it to adopt the resolution that recognizes only AK-47 as worthy of further refinement and army trials and at the same time bars Bulkins and Dementievs designs from further development. Ive read parts of the transcript of the Councils deliberations and its Q&A session with Lyutyi. The audacity of the whole situation is approaching comic levels at times: Lyutyi, the chief examiner, who helped MKT to steal Bulkins design argues inferiority of Bulkins design to the Council. 

Of course as Kalashnikov went on to become a household name he never bothered as much as to mention both his puppeteers who put him on the map and those he robbed. Lyutyi briefly enters the picture as he had designed the rate reducer thingie into the trigger group of AKM. The name of Bulkin is all but erased from, well, everywhere.

 

Judging by his writing, it looks like he doesn't perfectly understand the narrative he's repeating, but he includes too many names and specifics for me to dismiss it outright. I think it would be damned interesting if an alternate and more plausible "Kalashnikov conspiracy" narrative cropped up, besides the familiar ones born of what is essentially Western ignorance of the program.

[Donward]

Hey. He got a bit about Kalashnikov trying to bribe a widow. You know the story is on the up-and-up when it involves a bribed widow.

 

Even if the Soviet soap opera stuff is correct. I still don't see how the AK-47 can be a direct copy of the Stg-44 when there are so many gun designers mentioned muddling around with the trials and who have their own ideas.

[Brick Fight]

Interesting, but the way he wrote that gives me a headache. It's like someone's reading it monotone with few pauses. It's certainly more intriguing than the purely circumstantial claims I've heard from other people.

[Toxn]

I'd guess that he got it from he same place I heard the story (minus the widow-bribing):

 

http://www.amazon.com/The-Gun-C-J-Chivers/dp/0743271734

 

Well, that or everyone is working off the same source.

[LoooSeR]

Worst Korea soldiers

 

Indian soldier