Sturgeon Posted December 8, 2015 Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 I'd guess that he got it from he same place I heard the story (minus the widow-bribing): http://www.amazon.com/The-Gun-C-J-Chivers/dp/0743271734 Well, that or everyone is working off the same source. Chivers. I wanted others to confirm, as I don't have a copy of his book on me. So far as I can tell, that book is as much myth as it is history, and the author placed weaving a cohesive narrative over laying out the truth as he understood it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toxn Posted December 8, 2015 Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 Chivers. I wanted others to confirm, as I don't have a copy of his book on me. So far as I can tell, that book is as much myth as it is history, and the author placed weaving a cohesive narrative over laying out the truth as he understood it. This explains why I found a copy of it at my local bookstore... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toxn Posted December 8, 2015 Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 Troy cannot into AKs: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tied Posted December 8, 2015 Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 Hey. He got a bit about Kalashnikov trying to bribe a widow. You know the story is on the up-and-up when it involves a bribed widow. Even if the Soviet soap opera stuff is correct. I still don't see how the AK-47 can be a direct copy of the Stg-44 when there are so many gun designers mentioned muddling around with the trials and who have their own ideas. its the same reason that every post ww2 MBT, east or west, autoloader or not, failure or Soviet, is basically a Panther guys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khand-e Posted December 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 Cross post from elsewhere but yeah. Again, Im not entertaining the laughable notion that MTK was a firearm inventor of sorts (sure, he invented some fixtures; and Mugatu invented piano key necktie). And I certainly am not suggesting that merely utilizing a widely known component or a concept such as gas piston operation or rotary bolt or metallic cartridge makes gun designer a fraud. LOL YEAH, I mean other then the AK which he clearly just stole based on the evidence of shit I made up because COMMIEZ, what other firearms did Kalashnikov ever desi.... .....Oh. (I look forward to hearing how these are secretly also Stolen German/Stolen from other Soviet Gun designers if he manages to pull his head out of his ass for a few seconds by the time I'm back.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex C. Posted December 8, 2015 Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 Not sure that the PKM is the best example. It was designed by a team of talented people (with Kalashnikov attached of course). Also when I took one apart maybe 2 years ago, to me it seemed like a giant AK turned upside down modified for belt feed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sturgeon Posted December 8, 2015 Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 Not sure that the PKM is the best example. It was designed by a team of talented people (with Kalashnikov attached of course). Also when I took one apart maybe 2 years ago, to me it seemed like a giant AK turned upside down modified for belt feed. Both are true, but keep two things in mind: 1. Designing guns is hard, as we saw with the Faxon. 2. The AK was also designed by a team led by Kalashnikov It seems like a lot of the indignance you see in the West over the AK rifle is due to a great deal of misperception as to how Soviet arms development was conducted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex C. Posted December 8, 2015 Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 As opposed to how arms development in the west has often been the result of a single man a la John Garand or Browning? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sturgeon Posted December 8, 2015 Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 As opposed to how arms development in the west has often been the result of a single man a la John Garand or Browning? I would say Garand and Browning are thoroughly exceptional. Take David Marshall Williams and the M1 Carbine as a better comparison. The Carbine's not even his design, it was the product if a team of like three or four guys. Ditto the AR-15, which had a whole room of draftsmen working on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex C. Posted December 8, 2015 Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 Then what is the misperception? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sturgeon Posted December 8, 2015 Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 Oh, see that's what I get for drive-by posting on my phone. Forgot exactly what the original context was. Yes, you're right, the perception is that these people all were just birthing designs fully formed from the crown of their skull like Athena from the head of Zeus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donward Posted December 8, 2015 Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 Guys. Sturgeon has been reading 19th Century literature again and can't complete a sentence without drawing from Greek literature or mythology like Knemon's old maid-servant Simiche dropping her bucket into a well in the play Dyskolos wherein she... Oh fuck... It's contagious! Sturgeon 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Collimatrix Posted December 8, 2015 Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 Don't worry, we can stop the plague by quarantining everyone and accepting our regrettable but manly duty like Aeneas raising sail as he leaves Dido behind in Carthage... fuck, it got me too. Donward 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donward Posted December 8, 2015 Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 Alex needs this to add to his ugly sweater collection. Like for serious. He needs to be wearing this in his next TFB run-and-stumble-andmiffthestripperclipreload-and-gun vids! Alex C. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meplat Posted December 9, 2015 Report Share Posted December 9, 2015 Also when I took one apart maybe 2 years ago, to me it seemed like a giant AK turned upside down modified for belt feed. It basically is, which is a lot of why it is so fantastic. Always found it amusing to feed one with a Russian Maxim belt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sturgeon Posted December 9, 2015 Report Share Posted December 9, 2015 Alex, you are quickly becoming the most skilled person I know with a bolt gun. I used to think I was hot shit taking Enfields to 3-gun matches and stuff like that, but I got nothing on you. Belesarius, Alex C. and LoooSeR 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belesarius Posted December 9, 2015 Report Share Posted December 9, 2015 Czechs are apparently going to buy some Javlins via the FMS program. http://www.janes.com/article/56460/czech-republic-to-buy-javelin-atgws Sturgeon 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex C. Posted December 9, 2015 Report Share Posted December 9, 2015 Thanks Nate. That is high praise coming from you. But the run and gun series is by far my favorite TFBTV segment to do. The movement and shifts in position make them a little more challenging than they appear (especially shots while moving laterally). One of my goals is to show that early full-caliber semi-automatic rifles provided a great edge, but not some kind of ridiculous-ultimate-might-as-well-give-up advantage. We have the M1 Garand R&G filmed, and I found that the sights were that rifle's greatest asset. The self-loading aspect helped only on the last stage when I was up very close and able to quickly dump 5 rounds onto the target. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sturgeon Posted December 9, 2015 Report Share Posted December 9, 2015 Well, Jonathon Ferguson over at Royal Armouries apparently thinks you're hot shit, too. Julian S. Hatcher noted that the real benefit of a selfloading rifle in his eyes was the ability to make rapid second shot on a fleeting target, with the same sight picture and everything. Due to being manually operated, this wasn't possible with bolt guns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.E. Watters Posted December 9, 2015 Report Share Posted December 9, 2015 i seem to remember comments in Hatcher or elsewhere about the fatigue aspect of prolonged firing with the Springfield '03 versus the Garand. Between the recoil and repeated operation of the bolt handle, the Springfield test shooters were wrecked after firing a basic load of ammunition. Sturgeon 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sturgeon Posted December 9, 2015 Report Share Posted December 9, 2015 Here's the post I promised on WWII Russian assault rifles. LoooSeR 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostCosmonaut Posted December 9, 2015 Report Share Posted December 9, 2015 Here's the post I promised on WWII Russian assault rifles. Very cool. I remember reading about a 7.62x43 round that was developed around the same time for use in Soviet assault rifles. We're any select fire rifles ever developed in this caliber? Sturgeon 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sturgeon Posted December 9, 2015 Report Share Posted December 9, 2015 That was developed later, and I know almost nothing about it because the one Russian-language website that had any info on it has since expired. Max has the deets, though, and I'll ask him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sturgeon Posted December 9, 2015 Report Share Posted December 9, 2015 Col. Dean on the Maximi: "The Mk48 is a bit unreliable -- it's a scaled up Mk46, which is a net improvement on the M249, but when they scaled it up they didn't reinforce many of the components sufficiently to handle the heavier 7.62mm firing loads. And, frankly, it suffers from being a bit too heavy while having too short a barrel to take advantage of the 7.62mm round. It's a decent enough close-range assault gun (so suitable for the SEALS who originally adopted it), but a pretty poor fit otherwise for either the AR or LMG roles. Trying to make an LMG from an MMG-type system results in pretty poor net tradeoffs. We had conventional Army units experiment with both Mk46 and Mk48 in Afghanistan and while both had some advocates no overwhelming case could be made. If you want a 7.62mm weapon in the squad and are willing to pay the weight penalty -- which is even greater in ammo than in the weapon -- then OK. Given the complains the USMC and US Army have about weight of the M249 system, selecting a Mk48 instead strikes me as an even poorer choice -- if you're willing to take the increased weight of the ammo, might as well get a full MMG. The MG3 is a good choice if you don't like the heavier M240." D.E. Watters 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex C. Posted December 10, 2015 Report Share Posted December 10, 2015 Larry Vickers on the Mk48: "It was built WAY too light duty for 7.62 NATOIf you ever saw the bolt carrier group for the Mk48, which is almost identical in size and dimensions to a 5.56mm BCG such as used in an M249 or Mk46 ( no lie )- except with a 7.62 breech face - you would never ask any of these questions again100,000 rds on the receiver ? Maybe ( although I doubt it ) but when everything else wears out in less than a fraction of that round count what's the pointDestined to be a footnote in belted history" Sturgeon 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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