Japan’s modern armoured vehicles

[Serge]

To start a Japanese dedicated new topic, a Finn history :

https://defence-blog.com/finnish-armored-vehicle-prototype-spotted-testing-in-japan/

[Atokara]

7 hours ago, Serge said:

To start a Japanese dedicated new topic, a Finn history :

The 3 main competitors for the bid are the Mitsubishi MAV, LAV 6.0, and AMV XP. I've barely seen the LAV talked about at all so it seems like its the least likely to be picked. It still has a chance, but I don't see the AMV XP winning in this competition. The chosen APC would be replacing the Type 96 in infantry divisions, the ICV variant would be directly integrated into Japan's RDR which primarily use MCVs, and the RCV would go into the reconnaissance combat battalions of which all but 1 use the MCV.

With that being the case, the AMV XP is fighting a steep uphill battle competing against a MCV based hull with parts commonality to heavily integrate with units already using the MCV.

Spoiler

However it's still nice to see that Japan is opening up a bit to the international market and trying to stretch their limited budget.

[Gauntlet]

Did ARTEC  not try to enter the competition with the Boxer?

[Serge]

Maybe. 

[David Moyes]

1 hour ago, Gauntlet said:

Did ARTEC  not try to enter the competition with the Boxer?

[Atokara]

10 hours ago, Gauntlet said:

Did ARTEC  not try to enter the competition with the Boxer?

As posted by David, the boxer did some advertising at DSEI Japan 2019, but was eliminated from the running before the idea even made it off the ground due to the size and weight. The Type 16 MCV at 26t is basically the max limit of having free access to all Japanese infrastructure. Other candidates that didn't make it far and were dropped fairly early on include the Freccia, Stryker, Piranha, SuperAV, and South African RG41. These were all competing back when Komatsu was the primary JP bid. 

Basically everything from that initial program was scrapped. All competitors were basically eliminated. the LAV 6.0 wasn't even in the running then, the AMV in the first bid swapped to the AMV XP in the current program, and Mitsubishi took over Komatsu's spot.

[Clan_Ghost_Bear]

On 12/17/2021 at 7:43 PM, Atokara said:

I've barely seen the LAV talked about at all so it seems like its the least likely to be picked

GD withdrew from the competition in November.

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news-detail/gdls-withdraws-from-japans-type-96-replacement-programme-says-atla 

[Atokara]

Here is some of the stuff Japan is bringing to Eurosatory. This includes

JTPS-P8-E Coastal Radar

JFPS-3ME EW Radar (same one sold to the Philippines)

JTPS-P14ME Anti-Air warning Radar (same one sold to the Philippines)

OOZ-5 UUV (same UUV deployed on the Mogamis)

The most interesting one to me is the turret drives and accompanying systems from the Type 10

 

The changes to the Three Principles go into effect next March so hopefully this time next year instead of seeing Type 10 turret drives we see actual Type 10s.

[Atokara]

Newest production Type 16 spotted with what appears to be an RWS mounting plate.

Unknown what model it will be since Japan has 2 designs. The first appeared on an LAV for trials. The 2nd appeared on one of the Type 16 prototypes and ended up being the RWS on the Mogami frigates. Neither would affect C2 operations, but the first model is noticeably more compact. On the flip side the taller model would assist in the Type 16s secondary role of reconnaissance.

[Atokara]

I was wondering about what the smart block module was since there wasn't any info in the video. Looks like it's a build your own GaN X-band AESA. Customers can buy the pre-built module blocks and combine them to the required size/output needed.

[Atokara]

 

Footage from a training session using the Type 93 against a towed target from a BQM-74E. The towed target was 1m long traveling at 1000km/h. Both missiles were considered hits against a full size target.

[Atokara]

To my knowledge the first ever video inside of a Type 74 in the intro and at ~4:26. Plus its live fire. Ironically we have had more footage inside the Type 10 and Type 16 than we have the Type 74.

[Atokara]

https://grandfleet.info/middle-east-afria-related/mitsubishi-electric-is-discussing-radar-exports-with-egypt-but-the-bottleneck-is-us-approval/

Japan is looking at another potential sale of the J/FPS-3 after the Philippines. The primary issue here is that Japan is reluctant to sell their JADGE software with the system, and instead wants to sell the US NTDS which is where the bottleneck comes from. This was not an issue in the PH case because part of the sale was Japan having monitor access to the systems they sold, so also including JADGE was beneficial. PH is also one of the nations with tech transfer agreements in place with JP while Egypt does not.

[Atokara]

Japan should be selecting between the AMV XP and MAV very soon. In the preliminary request, there was a request for 29 vehicles of either type to begin replacing the Type 96. The winner of the program will have to be decided too before the budget request is sent out because they need to know the unit cost to know how much to request.

[Atokara]

The MCV based IFV has finally been spotted in the wild

[Atokara]

More pictures and videos

 

An interesting thing is that there is an iron vision-esque sensor cluster sitting over the left shoulder of the driver on the IFV.

[Atokara]

The Northern Army just held the 7th division Tank Shooting Competition a few days ago. Type 90s and Type 10s from the 7th Division Northern army directly competed against each other. The 2nd Division and 5th Brigade also participated, but was not earn placements as this was a 7th division event. A total of 144 tanks and 450 soldiers participated in the competition.

 

Events included shooting perpendicular firing of 2 tanks with 2 stationary tanks supporting, marching firing, and stationary firing all taking place >2km. Gunnery was scored using the 120mm and 7.62mm cannon.

During the competition points are added for each target hit, missed targets don't count, and during movement drills if a tank is out of position the target wont appear at all and score is deducted. Bonus points are additionally awarded if all targets are hit during a segment.

The maximum number of points that can be awarded without bonus points is 1000, but that has seemingly caused an issue this year.

 

The 72nd regiment frequently scored 100% accuracy in sections racking up bonus points and finished with a total score of 1270/1000 (Really the total score of 1000 just ignores bonus points and exceeding it was always a possibility). The more shocking part is the 72nd regiment exclusively operates Type 90s. It was a clean sweep of Type 90s though the competition at company and platoon levels, however a Type 10 platoon from the 2nd division also scored over 1000 points when counting bonus points, but was not included in placements.

 

The overwhelming victory of the 72nd regiment is attributed to the 72nd regiment being the most frequent unit to travel overseas to the Yakima Training Grounds and National Training Center in the US to participate in live fire events alongside their US counterparts.

Spoiler

https://mainichi.jp/articles/20221028/k00/00m/040/257000c

https://trafficnews.jp/post/122605

4K video of the competition

Spoiler

 

 

[Atokara]

A small look at the updated test model of the Mitsubishi AAV

 

Compared to the old prototype it is much larger including the crew compartment and is much closer to the final size.

 

[Stimpy75]

Spoiler

 

[Atokara]

Since Brazil's 8x8 program is wrapping up I thought I would talk about the VBC-CC which will involve Japan that has little to no coverage outside of Brazil. There is basically nothing in terms of Japanese or English sources.

So back in 2019 the head commander of the Brazilian army traveled to Japan the look at some Japanese weapons systems, but primarily the Type 10 and Type 16.

https://web.archive.org/web/20190821132735/https://www.defesanet.com.br/br_jp/noticia/33633/Comandante-do-Exercito-Brasileiro-em-viagem-oficial-ao-Japao-visita-escola-que-prepara-Forcas-Blindadas-Japonesas/

 

The Type 16 wasn't possible for VBCAC-MSR as it was conducted before Japan's relaxation of weapons exports. However the succeeding MBT program is taking place in 2023 and so the Commander recommended these specifications for the future MBT program

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news-detail/brazilian-army-releases-requirements-for-its-new-mbt-project

The requirements for the program basically eliminates every MBT besides the Type 10, one special vehicle and arguably the T-84-120, but that doesn't feature the required low recoil gun.

But then the requirements go further and even eliminate the Type 10 and T-84 with a 4 man crew requirement. This leaves only 1 maybe 2 options.

https://caiafamaster.com.br/exercito-do-japao-visita-a-guarnicao-de-santa-maria-com-propostas-de-parcerias/

 

Just last year a delegation from the ATLA went to Brazil to evaluate Brazilian vehicles and discuss technology transfers.

"'As part of our national defense strategy, we are challenged to seek solutions. In this sense, the Japanese Army is very open to interaction and technology transfer', evaluated General Ribeiro."

The biggest thing to note is that they evaluated the Osorio during that time which is essentially the only MBT that qualifies under the released specifications.

 

The current options seem to be a modified Type 10 to accommodate 4 crew members, new MBT co-developed by both countries, or an updated Osorio using Japanese electronics, JSW cannon and, Japanese armor from the Type 10.

 

I see the upgraded Osorio as the most likely candidate, but it will be interesting to see where this program goes now that it will start to pick up some steam.

[Atokara]

As part of the major defense reforms going into effect next year it seems like the LDP wants to reduce the barrier to entry for defense contractors. The government plans on building factories for the production of defense equipment that they will own. The factories will then be staffed by private contractors to build the equipment to try and reduce the production costs. This will also reduce hesitancy of companies to enter defense contracting as they won't have to build their own production facilities or modify existing production lines for the civilian sector.

https://www.bloomberg.co.jp/news/articles/2022-12-02/RM77IAT0G1KW01

[David Moyes]

Patria AMV XP wins competition:

https://www.patriagroup.com/newsroom/news/2022/patria-amvxp-8x8-vehicle-selected-by-japan-as-a-new-wheeled-armored-personnel-carrier-wapc-for-japan-ground-self-defense-force

"Seems that AMV scored higher in terms of basic performance and cost."
 

 

[Atokara]

A little summary of what went down.

• Both systems met the basic requirements of protection and performance required of the program.
• We don't know the specific scores of both systems so it's unknown which categories each system won.
• The Patria AMV was a much better value than the MAV which was one of the main reasons why it was picked. As for performance, the AMV's mine protection is one of the biggest factors as well. The MAV and Type 16 both have V hull add on plates, but are not purpose built so the AMV is much better in that category.

Now to the specifics. On top of the AMV being a better value, another suspected reason why it was picked was to have other companies producing vehicles. MHI is already committed to producing the Hawkei under license, the Type 89 replacement and possibly the CTWV program. Alongside that, the JSDF has been rapidly arming in the last few years and the AMV would be much quicker to production which seems to be the trend the MoD wants. The AMV contract will likely be given to another company to relieve MHI production lines and maintain other companies production lines. While not specifically a requirement, the amphibious capability of the AMV is also another thing that was alluring for the AMV. While the MAV would've been really convenient for a vehicle family, it's not all bad news for the AMV. The AMV replaces the Type 96 and the Type 82 CCV 6x6, so it reduces those systems into a single 8x8 platform which is still an improvement.

 

Contrary to what I've been seeing posted a lot, the AMV is not part of the CTWV program which is the armed ICV, RCV, and mortar system posted above. The AMV is just a new WAPC for the entirety of the JGSDF which means that Type 16 commonality isn't as important. The CTWV is only for the RDR and Recon units already using Type 16s which makes the family more valuable. So far there is no plans for any competition for that program as the platform commonality is seemingly so important there that competition wont be considered. However there was a request for companies to sign up for unmanned turret research.

There is no guarantee that this is specifically for the AMV, but there is a distinct possibility. A competition could potentially happen for the CTWV, but it's unlikely. I more see it that the JGSDF wants to have organic IFV capability inside of normal units operating the AMV and will act as an army wide IFV rather than the recon/RDR specific CTWV.

 

The AMV is a good platform, but hopefully Japan gets favorable production rights such as modification and exporting. I know with some past AMV sales, the modifications countries would make would be considered Patria intellectual property. I trust that Japan made the right choice on this one.

[Renegade334]

 

[Atokara]

The ICV was spotted again a few days ago this time with an updated turret face.

Style seen back in November

 

Updated turret face

I've seen some speculation on twitter that the box next to the gun is an ATGM guidance device similar to the one on the Type 89. On the old style it was just a placeholder mock up, but on the new style it has the proper mounting points to accommodate a sight.