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Khand-e

Vehicles of the PLA: Now with refreshing new topic title!

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Didn't want to sign up, but it seems I have no choice but to step in to clarify some things. All of the questions were mine.
Hello, everyone, by the way!

1 hour ago, U-47 said:

2, These tanks are in Inner Mongolia First Machinery Group Corporation (plant 617) 's museum, only who were invited may visit there.

That's a shame. I was wondering if there are more photos of those specific vehicles, sitting in the 617 plant's museum, where these came from, not any photos in general. Specifically, I am interested in seeing engine decks of 122 vehicles. But you have already partially provided this, thanks a lot.

1 hour ago, U-47 said:

Here are more photos of WZ122-6:

This is golden.

1 hour ago, U-47 said:

About WZ122-1, we call it "三液样车" (in English: 3-hydraulic prototype, meaning hydraulic control + hydraulic transmission + hydraulic suspension), here are its photos:

It's a good thing you have gathered I was asking about WZ-122, not WZ-111 :)
But I've made a mistake. The vehicle standing behind WZ-122-6 is WZ-122-2, not WZ-122-1. It can be easily identified as Three-Mechanical, but for some reason I thought that Three-Mechanical was built first, and Three-Hydraulic after, not the vice versa. I was wrong. So it is WZ-122-2 aka WZ-122B in the museum. And of course I was asking about never-seen-before photos (such as from this museum), not those two we all have surely already seen.

1 hour ago, U-47 said:

otvaga questions:

The turret is its original turret, the gun isn't, this displayed vehicle didn't have any gun in the early years, the current gun is installed by the museum. BTW, Storm-1's original gun is 105mm.

No, the turret it not original either, It just was installed earlier than the gun. It is clearly evident that this turret was built to house 2A46, since it has large round opening for commander's cupola on the right side (1) and typical gunner's hatch on the left (2). This constitutes for the crew of 3 (autoloader is present). And if this is not enough, it also has the case ejection window (3). This kind of setup is unsuitable for 105mm.
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1 hour ago, U-47 said:

I never heard of "type59 with  turbocharged engine and 1-piece cast turret", the only Chinese "1-piece cast turret" we know about is WZ122's turret.

Here it is, sitting next to WZ-111 hull:
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There is a name plaque in front of it, but nobody bothered to make a photo of it yet.
I suspect that this may be pre-1969 WZ-121, but it's only a hunch.

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23 hours ago, Levi said:

Didn't want to register, but it seems I have no choice but to step in to clarify some things. All of the questions were mine.

1, we built 3-hydraulic (WZ122-1) first, and it is a disaster, completely unreliable; that's why we turned back to mechanical (3-mechanical, WZ122-2 and WZ122-3), but they didn't work very well else, one of WZ122B (I don't whether it is WZ1222 or WZ1223) is in plant617's museum as the photo showed before, another one's turret is installed on a Type80 tank body and displaying in BeiJing tank museum (the photo below).
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2, buddy, I don't know what pictures you've saw already, and since plant617's museum is not a pubilc museum (and these tanks may also be stored in the warehouse untill now), the photos I uploaded are the only new photos so far.
3, there are other Storm-1 and Storm-2 (they are almost identical except the engine and transmission part) displaying in Chinese North Industries Corp's park and plant617's park. I checked their photos and I found you're right.:
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4, I havn't notice this special 59 tank before, I'll see to what I can find.

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2. I have probably seen every single photo available on searchable internet, including Chinese segment (and yes, I have seen this Storm-2 from the park too). However you have a tendency to post a lot of unique content like these photos of WZ-122-6 engine and driver's compartment that probably would have been lost if not for my request. I just wanted to make sure there isn't anything unposted left where the last bunch came from.
Thanks a lot for what you do anyway. I do not know if you realise it, but for some time already, you have been the only source of new information on historical experimental Chinese armor for the large portion of internet community (mostly western I suppose).
3. So, you're saying that all the differences Storm-1 and Storm-2 had, were in the power pack, and originally they had the same turret? (rha welded one, with Type83A gun (long L7)) I can work with that if it's the case.

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33 minutes ago, Levi said:

2. I have probably seen every single photo available on searchable internet, including Chinese segment (and yes, I have seen this Storm-2 from the park too). However you have a tendency to post a lot of unique content like these photos of WZ-122-6 engine and driver's compartment that probably would have been lost if not for my request. I just wanted to make sure there isn't anything unposted left where the last bunch came from.
Thanks a lot for what you do anyway. I do not know if you realise it, but for some time already, you have been the only source of new information on historical experimental Chinese armor for the large portion of internet community (mostly western I suppose).
3. So, you're saying that all the differences Storm-1 and Storm-2 had, were in the power pack, and originally they had the same turret? (rha welded one, with Type83A gun (long L7)) I can work with that if it's the case.

The RHA turret is Type80's stuff, not Storm-1 or Storm-2's. The photos above showed Storm tank turret's composite armor pack welded to the turret.

For other parts, yes, Storm-1 uses 730hp engine and planetary gearbox, Storm-2 uses 800hp engine (and the engine part is a little bigger in size) and hydraulic gearbox, basicly that's all the difference.

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5 minutes ago, U-47 said:

The RHA turret is Type80's stuff, not Storm-1 or Storm-2's. The photos above showed Storm tank turret's composite armor pack welded to the turret.

It has composite material on it's cheeks, but the rest is RHA. When saying "RHA welded turret" I meant welded turret with composite armor as opposed to cast turret with bolted-on welded modular armor packs typical to WZ-123. The turret on Storm-1 from Beijing museum is actually cast despite the angular shape.

5 minutes ago, U-47 said:

For other parts, yes, Storm-1 uses 730hp engine and planetary gearbox, Storm-2 uses 800hp engine (and the engine part is a little bigger in size) and hydraulic gearbox, basicly that's all the difference.

Thanks, this was the clue I was looking for.

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1 hour ago, Levi said:

It has composite material on it's cheeks, but the rest is RHA. When saying "RHA welded turret" I meant welded turret with composite armor as opposed to cast turret with bolted-on welded modular armor packs typical to WZ-123. The turret on Storm-1 from Beijing museum is actually cast despite the angular shape.

Thanks, this was the clue I was looking for.

Do you know WZ122's variant "product 704" ?

If you know it already, then I won't need to upload its picture anymore.

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U-47 is one of the best assets on PLA topics we've had on this forum as you can see.

We have some others that are really good, they unfortunately aren't around much anymore though.

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22 minutes ago, U-47 said:

Do you know WZ122's variant "product 704" ?

If you know it already, then I won't need to upload its picture anymore.

I may have seen it, but name "Product 704" is unfamiliar to me. Is it a Three-Mechanical vehicle? If yes, then I of course have seen all the searchable photos of it (accessible from google and baidu). But from time to time I accidentally stumble across new ones, some of which still cannot be found via image search. Besides, others may not be as involved in this topic as I am, so I's say it's safe to post anything which haven't been posted in the thread.

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2 minutes ago, Levi said:

I may have seen it, but name "Product 704" is unfamiliar to me. Is it a Three-Mechanical vehicle? If yes, then I of course have seen all the searchable photos of it (accessible from google and baidu). But from time to time I accidentally stumble across new ones, some of which still cannot be found via image search. Besides, others may not be as involved in this topic as I am, so I's say it's safe to post anything which haven't been posted in the thread.

It is a mechanical vehicle, but not WZ122-2 or -3 or even WZ122s, it's a variant which designed and built by LuoYang plant (plant 704, that's why this tank is named as Product 704), you can take it as a improved WZ122 3-mechanical.

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53 minutes ago, U-47 said:

It is a mechanical vehicle, but not WZ122-2 or -3 or even WZ122s, it's a variant which designed and built by LuoYang plant (plant 704, that's why this tank is named as Product 704), you can take it as a improved WZ122 3-mechanical.

I have seen most of these photos before, but didn't know the context. So I just dismissed them as "more pictures of WZ-122-2/3" because of the strong visual similarity. Now I notice that this tank's turret has rather developed elongated bustle, previous versions didn't - this is something new. It's a good thing this thread exists in other words :)

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The real "1st Chinese welded turret" ( built in 1979 or 1980. some parts are cast made, I think it means the hatchs and the part around mantlet) of type 80 tank, which is used as a ballistic test target, there is a project ( maybe a 122mm HE? ) right in front of it.

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Plant 617's testing ground, there are 2 WZ122s in the right, and a T72 (T72B?) in the left.

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17 hours ago, Levi said:

 

You asked me about the different between 2 sets of photos of "Type80's welded turret" before, I just found out why:

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This tank is not the "Type80 with test welded turret" at all, it is BK1851 as wrote on its turret. It's much later than "Type80 with test welded turret", it is a project started in 1985 which meant to use steering wheel driving and western engine & transmission parts.

Another unkown tank, maybe still BK1851:

32554381000_5ff230335a_o_d.png

I'll post BK1871 ( a early prototype of Type90-II tank, more like VK3601 to Tiger but not VK4501) 's photo later.

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6 hours ago, Khand-e said:

U-47 is one of the best assets on PLA topics we've had on this forum as you can see.

We have some others that are really good, they unfortunately aren't around much anymore though.

Thank you, that's part of the reason why I stay here, to share PLA info to these who like it.

5 hours ago, Bronezhilet said:

U-47, this is absolutely amazing. Thank you for posting these pictures and information!

And Levi, welcome to SH! :)

Thank you.

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13 hours ago, U-47 said:

Plant 617's testing ground, there are 2 WZ122s in the right, and a T72 (T72B?) in the left.

You asked me about the different between 2 sets of photos of "Type80's welded turret" before, I just found out why:

This tank is not the "Type80 with test welded turret" at all, it is BK1851 as wrote on its turret. It's much later than "Type80 with test welded turret", it is a project started in 1985 which meant to use steering wheel driving and western engine & transmission parts.

Early T-72M1 I think.
And thanks for the clarification on BK1851 tank.
By the way, how do WZ and BK codes relate to each other?

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6 hours ago, Levi said:

Early T-72M1 I think.
And thanks for the clarification on BK1851 tank.
By the way, how do WZ and BK codes relate to each other?

WZ is for vehicle which requested by PLA, like WZ120, WZ121, etc, that's what Chinese army asked first, then the plant start the project.

BK means "BaoKe" (In Chinese,"包科"),

"Bao"("包") means BaoTou ( "包头", a city of Inner Mongolia,  the city where plant 617 located),

"Ke"("科") means Keyan ( "科研", means "research" in English).

So BK means plant 617's own research project (not some stuff requested by PLA).

So they have no connection to each other,  a BK vehcile is not for the Army, so it won't have any WZ number.

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7 hours ago, Bronezhilet said:

They're still using that terrible HEAT round design... <_<

Do you really think they care for all the latest bells and whistles for an export design?

That is the question.

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On 2017/2/16 at 2:16 PM, Levi said:

 

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Most of these photos were claimed taken from T-72s (some may from other vehicles) in Plant 617, can you recognize if it is a T72B or T72M or sth else from these photos?

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7 hours ago, U-47 said:

Most of these photos were claimed taken from T-72s (some may from other vehicles) in Plate 617, can you recognize if it is a T72B or T72M or sth else from these photos?

Most of the photos seem to be a perfect T-72 match. Just as I said before, probability of this vehicle being T-72B was very low to begin with (T-72B couldn't have been found outside of Soviet Union prior to 1990s), and some pictures here prove it. Driver's and commander's controls (on photos 13 and 10) clearly identify it as T-72A/M1 and not T-72B (again, most likely M1). Picture 12 shows driver's place of neither T-72, nor any other Soviet vehicle, I do not know what it is. Photos 3 and 4 are ranther interesting. They seem to show typical T-72 autoloader, but something is off. I for one do not recognize boxes on the right side of the turret. Other pictures are typical to T-72. 1, 5, 6, 7, 9 show gun's breech, 2 - floor behind commander's seat, 8 - view behind driver's position (again, evidently this is a version prior to T-72B). 11 - transmission shift lever.

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5 hours ago, Levi said:

Most of the photos seem to be a perfect T-72 match. Just as I said before, probability of this vehicle being T-72B was very low to begin with (T-72B couldn't have been found outside of Soviet Union prior to 1990s), and some pictures here prove it. Driver's and commander's controls (on photos 13 and 10) clearly identify it as T-72A/M1 and not T-72B (again, most likely M1). Picture 12 shows driver's place of neither T-72, nor any other Soviet vehicle, I do not know what it is. Photos 3 and 4 are ranther interesting. They seem to show typical T-72 autoloader, but something is off. I for one do not recognize boxes on the right side of the turret. Other pictures are typical to T-72. 1, 5, 6, 7, 9 show gun's breech, 2 - floor behind commander's seat, 8 - view behind driver's position (again, evidently this is a version prior to T-72B). 11 - transmission shift lever.

Thank you for your identification. So this must be the T-72M we traded from Romania:

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(this is the only confirmed photo of this T-72M for many years, it was official called as "Type64 tank" for security reasons)

It seems you may didn't know about Chinese T-72B's story before: yes, technically, T-72B has never been exported, but, in the early 1990s, Russian army is busy on selling almost everything to feed themself, official or unofficial, legal or illegal. And there are rumors so we smuggled some T-80U and T-72B from your far eastern military district. Now, I don't know if the T-72B part is true (some of my friends said it is true), I never saw its confirmed photos, but the T-80U part is real for sure, here is the photo:

8d5dec8fgy1fd0tzmixcpj20go09tq3t.jpg

(and we found T-80U is completely immune to all our anti-tank weapons in the 1993 live fire test, this shocked PLA)

Now, back to the photo of plant 617's testing groud, I know you are far more professional on Russian tank than me, you said it should be a T72M (or T72A), do you mean you found some T72M's  features in the photo, or do you mean it is too hard to check out the specific type of this T72 in the photo but you believe it should be a T72M because there shouldn't be any T72B outside Russia?

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