Jump to content
Sturgeon's House

StuG III Thread (and also other German vehicles I guess)

Recommended Posts

8 hours ago, Collimatrix said:

The ability to make wider radii turns at higher speed would be nice, but a Sherman driver could approximate a wider-radius turn by using the turning brakes intermittently (and in fact they were instructed to do so to save wear).  So there would definitely be some speed range where the Sherman could simply initiate a turn, but a Panther would have to slow down to downshift into third or lower.

Exactly, and that's what the writer of that report was trying to get across. He goes on to detail what a PITA it is to have to estimate the radius of the turn "sufficiently far in advance to permit the vehicle's speed to drop low enough so that the desired low gear can be engaged, and has the further disadvantage that the vehicle's forward speed may be slower than is necessary or is desirable." So if you drop a guy into the Panther and send him off in a race, the writer implies there's a good chance he'll take the turns too slowly since he isn't familiar with the steering system.


2 hours ago, Xlucine said:

Didn't the french find the panther broke after 150km, not 1500?


Panther was better than sherman at swimming uphill through mud, but churchill was dominate in poor conditions. Tigger was just hopeless, for some reason, and T14 (!) was about the same as the sherman


Great report. We always have to be careful in the first place with these types of singleton tests, though, I suppose. In Mr. Churchill's Tank Fletcher details how the British 1st Armoured Division staged a trial between the Churchill and Sherman in December 1943 during which the tanks would "climb a scrub covered slope of average gradient, traverse the side of a hill which was cut up by small wadis and then tackle a very steep hill." The tankers reported that while Churchill could tackle difficult terrain slightly faster, the test was a draw: "There was no obstacle which the Churchill surmounted that proved impossible to the Sherman on the day of the trial." The trial was repeated after a rainstorm, and again the results between the tanks were similar: "Neither the Churchill nor the Sherman managed to get more than one third of the way along the course and both broke tracks when mud got into the drive sprockets and under the tracks." The Sherman reportedly got stuck and towed out of its mire by the Churchill, but the Churchill's final drive broke when driving on the wet plowed ground. Flecther states that driver skill would be more of a factor in mobility than the two tanks themselves.


1 hour ago, heretic88 said:


Still, the Panther in the swedish tests was damn impressive. It didnt appear to be underpowered at all. Sure, the Sherman in the test was an earlier variant, with narrower tracks, but I dont think even an M4A3E8 could beat the Panther in any of those tests. Equal at best. And Im pretty sure that the apparent inferiority of the Panther in curved courses was caused by the inexperience of the drivers. Putting an M60 driver in the seat of the T-72 would produce similar results.

I'd largely agree.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 2k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

from physical version of Mittler Report issue on KF41 Lynx (low-res scans are posted on htka.hu forum)   So, I've made couple of comparisons, to the best of my ability

Maybe me knowledge will suffice as well.   This is the VT-001 (Versuchsträger) prototype of the Marder 2 vehicle. With the introduction of the Leopard 2 there was a need for a new IFV t

A Dingo 2 of the Belgian army was hit by a pressure-activated IED consisting of about 30 kg explosives. The vehicle was part of a German-lead convoy, several German vehicles narrowly missed the IED be

Ooh, good stuff, especially about the T-34. Now I know what it was doing while Lulworth was waiting for it to arrive for trials. Interestingly enough, January of 1945 (when these trials ended) is also the last time Lulworth's schedule mentions anything about a T-34. I guess they got tired of waiting.

Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Xlucine said:

Didn't the french find the panther broke after 150km, not 1500?


Final drives gave out after 150km on average, transmission excluding 3rd gear was ~1500km. (Governed) Engines were also around ~1,500km. The French also found that pivot steering greatly accelerated wear on the final drives, to the point of having cases of the drives breaking mid-turn, and they gave strict orders to avoid pivot steering it.

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Serge said:

I have a question about a main SPz-Puma design change :

Does anyone knows why the first rear ramp design was cancelled to have a more basic one now ?

Was-it a mechanical nightmare ?

Was-it an fancy rear hatch concept ?

Was-it a matter of cost ?

Can i have a Picture of the rear ramp that are you refering to?

Link to post
Share on other sites
54 minutes ago, Serge said:

Was-it an fancy rear hatch concept ?


Yes, that was the case. The idea was to open the door only halfway, so the opening could be used as a makeshift hatch. The series production variant has a proper hatch on the roof, I don't think the pre-production variant featured that already.



Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, SH_MM said:

Yes, that was the case. The idea was to open the door only halfway, so the opening could be used as a makeshift hatch.

So nobody ‘s got the exact opinion of the panzergrenadieren (cost, awkward...).

the concept was not ridiculous. It :

- suppress a balistic hole ;

- leave no interdiction angle for the turret ;

- has a sacrificial armored plate ;

- was possible to recover 2 soldiers ;

- can carry 2 RPG to direct resupply from the outside. 

23 hours ago, SH_MM said:

he series production variant has a proper hatch on the roof, I don't think the pre-production variant featured that already.

The initial rear ramp concept was only available on 5 road wheels chassis.


Link to post
Share on other sites

German concept proposed during the Kampfpanzer 3 / FMBT project to the UK via https://andrei-bt.livejournal.com/928203.html


Twin-gun casemat tank from Maschinenbau Kiel:





Low-profile turret tank with driver in turret by Krauss-Maffei (similar to MBT-70, but with 120 mm smoothbore gun and manual loader - maybe derived from the Eber concept):








Armor is spaced steel plates, sometimes with fuel inbetween them. The MaK design has 727 mm thick armor, but the actual steel thickness is just 259 mm...






Note that according to Krapke a third concept (AFAIK either turretless or with unmanned turret?) was proposed.

Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, SH_MM said:


This is not entirely correct, because the frontal armor is only 703 mm thick instead of 727 mm. I guess it is a slightly different state of development of the same vehicle.

i guess brits made some wrong calculations(frontal stucture 7 plates for example. not 6) because german report(from which they take this drawings) gives scheme that Yuri posted.


ofcourse there can be some variants, but it(drawings) look like same in german source report 

Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Wiedzmin said:

ofcourse there can be some variants, but it(drawings) look like same in german source report 


The vehicle shown in the drawings sent to the UK has air vents on both sides of the engine compartment, but none at the rear. The armor scheme shows air vents on only one side of the hull, but also at the rear of the hull. The overall width is also different. IMO that also suggests that both vehicles are related to the same design, but at different stages of development. The twin-gun casemate tank concept was being considered between 1972 and 1985 with multiple, slightly different designs (later ones I supposed with composite armor).

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, SH_MM said:

So roughly 177 mm steel when seen directly from the front, with a slightly higher effective protection due to the armor being spaced. Is the outer layer made of high-hardness steel like on the Leopard 2 PT with spaced turret ("Leopard 2K")?

(30+35)65mm/65 degree 


HZB 301 370-410HB and up to 490 for 12mm plates,roof HZB20 260-300HB

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/7/2018 at 3:41 PM, SH_MM said:

So roughly 177 mm steel when seen directly from the front, with a slightly higher effective protection due to the armor being spaced. Is the outer layer made of high-hardness steel like on the Leopard 2 PT with spaced turret ("Leopard 2K")?


I find hard to understand the logic behind this armor... Only barely more than bullet and autocannon proof. No chance to stop even 85mm APHE of ASU-85. Then why overly complicate this? What is this double layer for? A single, slightly thicker (~40mm) plate would work just as well, like the original Leopard turret. A little bit more for turret front, to make it resistant to at least the 76mm gun of PT-76.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Similar Content

    • By SH_MM
      Found a few higher resolution photographs from the recent North Korean military parade. We didn't have a topic for BEST KOREAN armored fighting vehicles, so here it is.
      New main battle tank, Abrams-Armata clone based on Ch'ŏnma turret design (welded, box-shaped turret) and Sŏn'gun hull design (i.e. centerline driver's position). The bolts of the armor on the hull front is finally visible given the increased resolution. It might not be ERA given the lack of lines inbetween. Maybe is a NERA module akin to the MEXAS hull add-on armor for the Leopard 2A5?
      Other details include an APS with four radar panels (the side-mounted radar panels look a lot different - and a lot more real - than the ones mounted at the turret corners) and twelve countermeasures in four banks (two banks à three launchers each at the turret front, two banks à three launchers on the left and right side of the turret). Thermal imagers for gunner and commander, meteorological mast, two laser warning receivers, 115 mm smoothbore gun without thermal sleeve but with muzze reference system, 30 mm grenade launcher on the turret, six smoke grenade dischargers (three at each turret rear corner)

      IMO the layout of the roof-mounted ERA is really odd. Either the armor array covering the left turret cheek is significantly thinner than the armor on the right turret cheek or the roof-mounted ERA overlaps with the armor.

      The first ERA/armor element of the skirt is connected by hinges and can probably swivel to allow better access to the track. There is a cut-out in the slat armor for the engine exhaust. Also note the actual turret ring - very small diameter compared to the outer dimensions of the turret.
      Stryker MGS copy with D-30 field gun clone and mid engine:

      Note there are four crew hatches. Driver (on the left front of the vehicle), commander (on the right front of the vehicle, seat is placed a bit further back), gunner (left side of the gun's overhead mount, next to the gunner's sight) and unknown crew member (right side of gun's overhead mount with 30 mm automatic grenade launcher mounted at the hatch). The vehicle also has a thermal imager and laser rangefinder (gunner's sight is identical to the new tank), but no independent optic for the commander. It also has the same meteorological mast and laser warner receivers as the new MBT.
      What is the purpose of the fourth crew member? He cannot realistically load the gun...
      The vehicle has a small trim vane for swimming, the side armor is made of very thin spaced steel that is bend on multiple spots, so it clearly is not ceramic armor as fitted to the actual Stryker.

      The tank destroyer variant of the same Stryker MGS copy fitted with a Bulsae-3 ATGM launcher.

      Note that there is again a third hatch with 30 mm automatic grenade launcher behind the commander's position. Laser warning receivers and trime vane are again stand-out features. The sighting complex for the Bulsae-3 ATGMs is different with a large circular optic (fitted with cover) probably being a thermal imager and two smaller lenses visible on the very right (as seen from the vehicle's point of view) probably containing a day sight and parts of the guidance system.

      Non line-of-sight ATGM carrier based on the 6x6 local variant of the BTR, again fitted with laser warning receivers and a trim vane. There are only two hatches and two windows, but there is a three men crew inside.
      There are a lot more photos here, but most of them are infantry of missile system (MLRS' and ICBMs).
    • By Monochromelody
      Disappeared for a long period, Mai_Waffentrager reappeared four months ago. 
      This time, he took out another photoshoped artifact. 

      He claimed that the Japanese prototype 105GSR (105 mm Gun Soft Recoil) used an autoloader similar to Swedish UDES 19 project. Then he showed this pic and said it came from a Japanese patent file. 
      Well, things turn out that it cames from Bofors AG's own patent, with all markings and numbers wiped out. 

      original file→https://patents.google.com/patent/GB1565069A/en?q=top+mounted+gun&assignee=bofors&oq=top+mounted+gun+bofors
      He has not changed since his Type 90 armor scam busted. Guys, stay sharp and be cautious. 
    • By LostCosmonaut
      Backstory (skip if you don't like alternate history junk)
      The year is 2239. It has been roughly 210 years since the world was engulfed in nuclear war. Following the war, the United States splintered into hundreds of small statelets. While much knowledge was retained in some form (mostly through books and other printed media), the loss of population and destruction of industrial capability set back society immensely.
      Though the Pacific Northwest was less badly hit than other areas, the destruction of Seattle and Portland, coupled with the rupturing of the Cascadia Subduction Zone in 2043, caused society to regress to a mid-19th century technology level. However, in the early 2100s, the Cascade Republic formed, centered near Tacoma. The new nation grew rapidly, expanding to encompass most of Washington and Oregon by 2239. The Cascade Republic now extends from the Klamath River in the south to the Fraser River in the north, and from the Pacific roughly to central Idaho. Over time, the standard of living and industrial development improved (initially through salvaging of surviving equipment, by the late 2100s through new development); the population has grown to about 4.5 million (comparable to 1950 levels), and technology is at about a 1940 level. Automobiles are common, aircraft are less common, but not rare by any means. Computers are nonexistent aside from a few experimental devices; while scientists and engineers are aware of the principles behind microchips and other advanced electronics, the facilities to produce such components simply do not exist. Low rate production of early transistors recently restarted.
      The current armored force of the Cascade Republic consists of three armored brigades. They are presently equipped with domestically produced light tanks, dating to the 2190s. Weighing roughly 12 tons and armed with a 40mm gun, they represented the apex of the Cascade Republic's industrial capabilities at the time. And when they were built, they were sufficient for duties such as pacifying survivalist enclaves in remote areas. However, since that time, the geopolitical situation has complicated significantly. There are two main opponents the Cascade Republic's military could expect to face in the near future.
      The first is California. The state of California was hit particularly hard by the nuclear exchange. However, in 2160, several small polities in the southern part of the state near the ruins of Los Angeles unified. Adopting an ideology not unfamiliar to North Korea, the new state declared itself the successor to the legacy of California, and set about forcibly annexing the rest of the state. It took them less than 50 years to unite the rest of California, and spread into parts of Arizona and northern Mexico. While California's expansion stopped at the Klamath River for now, this is only due to poor supply lines and the desire to engage easier targets. (California's northward advanced did provide the final impetus for the last statelets in south Oregon to unify with the Cascade Republic voluntarily).
      California is heavily industrialized, possessing significant air, naval, and armored capabilities. Their technology level is comparable to the Cascade Republic's, but their superior industrial capabilities and population mean that they can produce larger vehicles in greater quantity than other countries. Intelligence shows they have vehicles weighing up to 50 tons with 3 inches of armor, though most of their tanks are much lighter.

      The expected frontlines for an engagement with the Californian military would be the coastal regions in southern Oregon. Advancing up the coastal roads would allow California to capture the most populated and industrialized regions of the Cascade Republic if they advanced far enough north. Fortunately, the terrain near the border is very difficult and favors the defender;

      (near the Californian border)

      The other opponent is Deseret, a Mormon theocratic state centered in Utah, and encompassing much of Nevada, western Colorado, and southern Idaho. Recently, tension has arisen with the Cascade Republic over two main issues. The first is the poorly defined border in Eastern Oregon / Northern Nevada; the old state boundary is virtually meaningless, and though the area is sparsely populated, it does represent a significant land area, with grazing and water resources. The more recent flashpoint is the Cascade Republic's recent annexation of Arco and the area to the east. Deseret historically regarded Idaho as being within its sphere of influence, and maintained several puppet states in the area (the largest being centered in Idaho Falls). They regard the annexation of a signficant (in terms of land area, not population) portion of Idaho as a major intrusion into their rightful territory. That the Cascade Republic has repaired the rail line leading to the old Naval Reactors Facility, and set up a significant military base there only makes the situation worse.
      Deseret's military is light and heavily focused on mobile operations. Though they are less heavily mechanized than the Cascade Republic's forces, operating mostly armored cars and cavalry, they still represent a significant threat  to supply and communication lines in the open terrain of eastern Oregon / southern Idaho.

      (a butte in the disputed region of Idaho, near Arco)
      As the head of a design team in the Cascade Republic military, you have been requested to design a new tank according to one of two specifications (or both if you so desire):
      Medium / Heavy Tank Weight: No more than 45 tons Width: No more than 10.8 feet (3.25 meters) Upper glacis / frontal turret armor of at least 3 in (76mm) LoS thickness Side armor at least 1in (25mm) thick (i.e. resistant to HMG fire) Power/weight ratio of at least 10 hp / ton No more than 6 crew members Primary armament capable of utilizing both anti-armor and high explosive rounds Light tank Weight: No more than 25 tons Width: No more than 10.8 feet Upper glacis / frontal turret armor of at least 1 in thickness Side armor of at least 3/8 in (10mm) thickness Power/weight ratio of at least 12 hp / ton No more than 6 crew members Primary armament capable of utilizing both anti-armor and high explosive rounds  
      Other relevant information:
      Any tank should be designed to operate against either of the Cascade Republic's likely opponents (California or Deseret) The primary heavy machine gun is the M2, the primary medium machine gun is the M240. Use of one or both of these as coaxial and/or secondary armament is encouraged. The secret archives of the Cascade Republic are available for your use. Sadly, there are no running prewar armored vehicles, the best are some rusted hulks that have long been stripped of usable equipment. (Lima Tank Plant ate a 500 kt ground burst) Both HEAT and APFSDS rounds are in testing. APCR is the primary anti-armor round of the Cascade Republic. Either diesel or gasoline engines are acceptable, the Cascade Republic is friendly with oil producing regions in Canada (OOC: Engines are at about a late 1940s/early 50s tech level) The adaptability of the tank to other variants (such as SPAA, SPG, recovery vehicle, etc.) is preferred but not the primary metric that will be used to decide on a design. Ease of maintenance in the field is highly important. Any designs produced will be compared against the M4 Sherman and M3 Stuart (for medium/heavy and light tank), as these blueprints are readily available, and these tanks are well within the Cascade Republic's manufacturing capabilities.  
    • By Sovngard
      Meanwhile at Eurosatory 2018 :
      The Euro Main Battle Tank (EMBT), a private venture project intended for the export market.

  • Create New...