Land 400 Phase 3: Australian IFV

[Thuel]

There you have it!
 

“The ABC can reveal the German and Korean companies bidding for the rescoped program have been asked to provide options for an Australian build, or complete overseas production of the IFVs with local support.”
 

https://amp-abc-net-au.cdn.ampproject.org/c/s/amp.abc.net.au/article/102395168

 

[2805662]

34 minutes ago, Thuel said:

There you have it!
 

“The ABC can reveal the German and Korean companies bidding for the rescoped program have been asked to provide options for an Australian build, or complete overseas production of the IFVs with local support.”
 

https://amp-abc-net-au.cdn.ampproject.org/c/s/amp.abc.net.au/article/102395168

 

Reportedly, input costs in Germany have risen significantly due to the denuclearisation of the power grid. This, plus capacity issues thanks to post-February 2022 orders, may make KF41 cheaper to build in Australia than Germany. 

[SH_MM]

8 hours ago, 2805662 said:

Reportedly, input costs in Germany have risen significantly due to the denuclearisation of the power grid. This, plus capacity issues thanks to post-February 2022 orders, may make KF41 cheaper to build in Australia than Germany. 

 

The "denuclearisation" of electrical power didn't have an impact on prices for industrial application, but the reduction of gas imports from Russia. However "overseas production" isn't limiting Rheinmetall to Germany. They have a brand now plant in Zalaegerszeg, Hungary specifically made for producing Lynx IFVs. The lower cost of labor and the lack of follow-up contracts for that site certainly favors proposing a Hungary-based production.

 

Rheinmetall already wanted to use this plant when bidding in the Slovak IFV program.

[SH_MM]

 

Lance turret shell in Australia

[Cleb]

Aussie Boxer demonstrated for German Army personnel during Exercise Talisman Sabre 2023.

 

Spoiler

 

[2805662]

Block 2 turret. 
 

The latest rumour is that the winner for 400-3 will be announced at the Defence + Industry conference on 27 July. Not getting too excited, tbh. 

[SH_MM]

The assembled vehicle is now being showcased at the German Infantry School in Hammelburg:

[2805662]

Still standing by. 
 

 

Still don’t believe it. 

[Dragonstriker]

It's for real.

Hanwha wins lucrative Army IFV contract - Australian Defence Magazine

The Redback is confirmed with Mk44, Boxer uses MK30-2, so the IFV and the CRV will use incompatible ammunition despite both being 30X173.

Is there a conversion for Mk44 to use rheinmetall links? Or a linkless feeder for MK30-2?

[Kal]

the better vehicle for Australia won,  but I suspect at the end of the day, it all came do to price, price and price. 

 

somehow I have visions of diggers manually unlinking  NATO 30x173 and relinking them to Rheinmetall 30x173 either at base or on patrol.   Cause thats what the USA came to the party with.

[Dragonstriker]

Comments in ADM and The Australian imply that the cost of Lynx was very close to Redback and directly state that Redback was preferred on capabilities.

 

If CASG had any sense, which is an open question, redback would be delivered with mk44S. Minor cost differential now, for Super40 later, if needed.

The reason for selecting 30x173 over 35x228 was ammo capacity; super40 keeps that capacity with improved performance over 30mm if the threat requires it.

It won’t happen, because it would be too sensible, just as specifying Mk30-2/ABM as the cannon armament for L400-3 was too sensible.

Edit: mk44S it is. Good job by those who decided.

 

[Kal]

https://n.news.naver.com/mnews/article/366/0000919875?sid=101 

 

Koreans claiming that some claiming that redback was a bit more expensive but better in the evaluation.

 

More expensive, I doubt,  better in evaluation is high likelihood, if only for the rubber tracks all the way through evaluation.  And the EOS/Elbit goodies

[Kal]

https://asiapacificdefencereporter.com/selection-of-redback-ifv-confirms-the-importance-of-test-trials/

 

'All of the leaks had a certain consistently to them: namely that the Redback was proving to be exceptionally reliable and robust.  This in turn was probably related to the use of rubber tracks – more accurately steel mesh coated in rubber – which greatly reduced vibration when driving across almost all surfaces.  They also proved to be more durable and easier to repair than conventional steel link tracks used by the Lynx.

 

This has never been confirmed – and probably never will be – but there was also a suggestion that the Redback had an advantage in the critically important blast test requirements.  Both vehicles passed but apparently one of them did so with a greater margin of safety.  Hanwha used Israel’s Plasan – a world leader in armour protection – to develop their solution.

 

This might be a coincidence, but APDR has seen evidence of Redback undergoing preliminary blast testing in Israel with a number of 155mm artillery shells being detonated near a test vehicle, with impressive survivability results.'

 

not precisely the same way, but it seems that Redback did to Lynx, what Boxer did to AMV35.  Demonstrate superiority via an unscripted method,  Boxer driving off after a blast test in Vic,  Redback doing something after a 155mm shell test, overseas.

[SH_MM]

I would not trust the claims about the blast tests without any more detailed source. People somehow believe that Redback has good armor, because it uses armor provided by Plasan. The fact that Rheinmetall acquired IBD and IBD at its peak was a bigger player (in terms of total armor kits deliveried, locations around the globe and number of different vehicles types fitted with armor solutions) than Plasan in the armor market is often not known to those people. Plasan doesn't really have the same references, being not active on the global market for as long as IBD/Rheinmetall. They don't even provide the full armor kits for the Piranha series, only the mine protection kit. Just like with WCSP, where they only provided the turret armor.

 

For the BAE Systems' ACV, IBD developed an armor kit capable to withstand the detonation of 10 (!) 155 mm artillery shells stacked ontop of each other... and that was ten years ago.

[Rico]

1 hour ago, Kal said:

https://asiapacificdefencereporter.com/selection-of-redback-ifv-confirms-the-importance-of-test-trials/

 

'All of the leaks had a certain consistently to them: namely that the Redback was proving to be exceptionally reliable and robust.  This in turn was probably related to the use of rubber tracks – more accurately steel mesh coated in rubber – which greatly reduced vibration when driving across almost all surfaces.  They also proved to be more durable and easier to repair than conventional steel link tracks used by the Lynx.

 

This has never been confirmed – and probably never will be – but there was also a suggestion that the Redback had an advantage in the critically important blast test requirements.  Both vehicles passed but apparently one of them did so with a greater margin of safety.  Hanwha used Israel’s Plasan – a world leader in armour protection – to develop their solution.

 

This might be a coincidence, but APDR has seen evidence of Redback undergoing preliminary blast testing in Israel with a number of 155mm artillery shells being detonated near a test vehicle, with impressive survivability results.'

 

not precisely the same way, but it seems that Redback did to Lynx, what Boxer did to AMV35.  Demonstrate superiority via an unscripted method,  Boxer driving off after a blast test in Vic,  Redback doing something after a 155mm shell test, overseas.

 

In general it must be seen that Rheinmetall is pretty new in tracked vehicle development.

They did Marder decades ago and several subsystems for PzH, Puma, Leopard etc. So it not surpising that they performed not as good as their marketing tries to tell.

 

I think it is easy to see that KMW (in the combined projects of PzH, Puma, Leopard etc.) did the areas where Rheinmetall has issues now - such as drive line and chassis. In addition to the wrong choice of Lynx's engine.

 

Besides that, it is good that they are finally starting to become a real tracked vehicle manufacturer (which is possible due to Hungary) but it will take some years until they are where they want to be.

[Renegade334]

 

Edited July 31, 2023 by Renegade334
larger version

[Kal]

https://www.australiandefence.com.au/news/news/hanwha-wins-lucrative-army-ifv-contract

 

on its one-piece low vibration rubber tracks,

 

The turret mounts the Northrop Grumman Mk44S Bushmaster II 30 mm cannon -  a scaled-up version of the M242 25 mm cannon fitted to Army’s ASLAVs and capable of firing all natures of the 30mm x 173mm ammunition in service with the US and 18 other nations

 

Powered by a 1,000 hp MTU eight cylinder diesel similar to that equipping the Boxer Combat Reconnaissance Vehicle being acquired under Land 400 Phase 2, the Redback also uses the same Alison automatic transmission as Army’s M1AI Abrams main battle tank.

 

The running gear comprises seven road wheels and an advanced in-arm independent suspension system (ISU) that allows individual control of each bogey on the track and dispenses with torsion bars, providing more space for effective blast mitigation

 

The EOS R400S Mk2 RWS mounted on the roof in front of the gunner’s hatch can be fitted with a range of weapons and provides the commander’s sight, utilising a medium-wave infrared cooled thermal camera with a detection range of at least 12 km at night, recognition at 5.1 km, and identification at 4 km.

 

the Redback turret also incorporates the Elbit Iron Vision system which furnishes the vehicle’s commander (and others if required) with a heads-up external view from a turret-mounted camera array while remaining safely under armour. Iron Vision also provides access to all sights and the ability to shoot from the commander’s helmet-mounted display or to cue the main gun for the gunner.

 

Turret and hull protection is provided entirely by Australian-manufactured Bisalloy armour steel.

 

 

FWIW, I think it was its rubber tracks that won the day for Hanwha,  they seemed to be losing due to their exhaust, but then when late in day 

  (Lynx wearing rubber)

[2805662]

Closest to confirmation we’re likely to get regarding the Elbit MT30 turret. 
 

[SH_MM]

The Germany parliament has reportedly rejected the notion to buy the Boxer CRV Block 2 from Australia after the selection of the Redback IFV. Earlier reports suggest that buying Boxers from Australia was twice as expensive as producing them in Germany and was meant to be a compensation deal when choosing Lynx.

[2805662]

1 hour ago, SH_MM said:

The Germany parliament has reportedly rejected the notion to buy the Boxer CRV Block 2 from Australia after the selection of the Redback IFV. Earlier reports suggest that buying Boxers from Australia was twice as expensive as producing them in Germany and was meant to be a compensation deal when choosing Lynx.

Gives an indication on how expensive Boxer CRV is for Australia. 

[2805662]

Contract signature:

 

https://www.minister.defence.gov.au/media-releases/2023-12-08/contracts-signed-infantry-fighting-vehicles