United States Military Vehicle General: Guns, G*vins, and Gas Turbines

[alanch90]

So this showed up today

 

First glance, seems like a modified hull with extra periscopes which would be the case if the crew was to be taken out of the turret and into the hull. But on the other hand, the shape of the turret seems to be the same classic Abrams pre SEPv3. 

[StarshipDirect]

7 hours ago, alanch90 said:

So this showed up today

 

First glance, seems like a modified hull with extra periscopes which would be the case if the crew was to be taken out of the turret and into the hull. But on the other hand, the shape of the turret seems to be the same classic Abrams pre SEPv3. 

A while back GD received a contract to develop an unmanned turret for the M1. Looks like they will be showing it off at AUSA this October. Doubt it’s going to be the SEP V4 since that’s not really “next generation.” 

[Lord_James]

8 hours ago, alanch90 said:

So this showed up today

 

First glance, seems like a modified hull with extra periscopes which would be the case if the crew was to be taken out of the turret and into the hull. But on the other hand, the shape of the turret seems to be the same classic Abrams pre SEPv3. 

That just looks like the TTB, but it would be a breath of fresh air if they finally used her lessons and technology for something other than the expensive rust bucket she currently is. 

[2805662]

Gun shields, sorry, “Objective Commander’s Weapon Station” for AMPV:

 

https://www.army.mil/article/255320/?fbclid=IwAR2sB31uEVi5ao3EHZQ2dS2GR2GiA65zwrMxkagqktxdC5HB0hfA4OSynD8&linkId=160429295

 

 

 

 

[Ramlaen]

 

[Clan_Ghost_Bear]

The MDEX presentations from last week are out:

https://mdex-ndia.com/2022-presentations/

 

Of note, The MBT program manager sees more sales in Eastern Europe for the Abrams.

 

[Ramlaen]

 

[Beer]

On 4/28/2022 at 5:32 PM, Clan_Ghost_Bear said:

The MDEX presentations from last week are out:

https://mdex-ndia.com/2022-presentations/

 

Of note, The MBT program manager sees more sales in Eastern Europe for the Abrams.

 

Even though it's not in Eastern Europe Czechia is likely one of those opportunities. Though the expected number of new MBTs is very low (two battalions at best). 

[Lord_James]

I would think with the price of gasoline going up, people wouldn’t be very enthused with the gas hungry Abrams. 

[Renegade334]

On 4/20/2022 at 9:29 PM, alanch90 said:

So this showed up today

 

Uh, what's with the side skirts? It looks like metal plates, kinda reminiscent of the T-64's Gill Skirts, but set at an angle and/or shingled.
This doesn't even remotely look like a M19 ARAT-1 or M32 ARAT-2 (which, IIRC, was more designed to counter EFPs rather than full-blown HEAT jets) array.

[Beer]

16 hours ago, Lord_James said:

I would think with the price of gasoline going up, people wouldn’t be very enthused with the gas hungry Abrams. 

 

I don't think that it's the main criteria. My few cents how I feel it here (not saying I am right of course). 

 

There are only three viable options - Leopard 2, Abrams, K2. IMHO Merkava or Leclerc are not on the table (despite our traditionally good relationship with Israel). Out of those three we can safely say that K2 has a chance only if Czechia is not alone in EU to buy it. After the failed bid in Poland the chances are slim. Maybe if Norway selects the K2..., otherwise no chance even though K2 would be for sure a very interesting option for the military because it has some reasonable advantages for us such as three-men crew or lower weight. Leopard 2 is for sure a sensible option from technical point of view but I think that the militaty would prefer cooperation with US (and Poland) rather than Germany. Just have a look on the stuff we are using. We are neighbouring with Germany but we use basically no German weapons, none of Euro projects lead by Germany, not even anything second-hand (we have a handful of Dingo II but that's it). The reasons are IMHO purely political. The new government leans even more towards US and at least for now it also stands with Poland. Now when Poland decided for Abrams the option to share the Polish service and mainteanance base with them and Americans is for sure very attractive (despite all the technical troubles the Abrams brings for us - mainly the excessive weight). On the other hand it's also possible that some sort of weapon deal with Germany may also go through in the future as a sort of friendly gesture. We'll see. 

[Volke]

14 hours ago, Beer said:

 

I don't think that it's the main criteria. My few cents how I feel it here (not saying I am right of course). 

 

There are only three viable options - Leopard 2, Abrams, K2. IMHO Merkava or Leclerc are not on the table (despite our traditionally good relationship with Israel). Out of those three we can safely say that K2 has a chance only if Czechia is not alone in EU to buy it. After the failed bid in Poland the chances are slim. Maybe if Norway selects the K2..., otherwise no chance even though K2 would be for sure a very interesting option for the military because it has some reasonable advantages for us such as three-men crew or lower weight. Leopard 2 is for sure a sensible option from technical point of view but I think that the militaty would prefer cooperation with US (and Poland) rather than Germany. Just have a look on the stuff we are using. We are neighbouring with Germany but we use basically no German weapons, none of Euro projects lead by Germany, not even anything second-hand (we have a handful of Dingo II but that's it). The reasons are IMHO purely political. The new government leans even more towards US and at least for now it also stands with Poland. Now when Poland decided for Abrams the option to share the Polish service and mainteanance base with them and Americans is for sure very attractive (despite all the technical troubles the Abrams brings for us - mainly the excessive weight). On the other hand it's also possible that some sort of weapon deal with Germany may also go through in the future as a sort of friendly gesture. We'll see. 

K2 hasn't failed any bid in Poland yet, we bought Abrams outside the Wilk MBT programme as a replacement for rapidly aging T-72M and M1s. The main future MBT project is still ongoing, and K2PL is the favourite so far. Thing is, it doesn't exist, and who knows how long it will take to build it, and even then who knows if politicians won't change their minds.

[Ramlaen]

Lets not kid ourselves, Poland is not going to buy K2 at this point unless it is the only option.

[Kal]

10 minutes ago, Ramlaen said:

Lets not kid ourselves, Poland is not going to buy K2 at this point unless it is the only option.

I could see Poland maintaining some local tank production capacity.  Korean company would be happy with that, not all doctrine want heavy weight tank only.

[Clan_Ghost_Bear]

[Żółć]

22 hours ago, Ramlaen said:

Lets not kid ourselves, Poland is not going to buy K2 at this point unless it is the only option.

I agree with you. In my oppinion Poland is stuck with Abrams for good, and it will eventually become our only MBT. But to be fair, there is still a lot of talk about K2 and K2PL in Poland, including military journalists and some politicians. The vice minister of defence talked, in today's article, about talks, that are held with Hyundai considering the aquasition of K2.

[StarshipDirect]

6 hours ago, Żółć said:

I agree with you. In my oppinion Poland is stuck with Abrams for good, and it will eventually become our only MBT. But to be fair, there is still a lot of talk about K2 and K2PL in Poland, including military journalists and some politicians. The vice minister of defence talked, in today's article, about talks, that are held with Hyundai considering the aquasition of K2.

The M1 is a mechanical piece of sh*t and is expensive to operate. Big mistake for Poland to buy it. They’re gonna be operating a tank with a 50 year old engine. The K2 would best meet Polands requirements. 

[Ramlaen]

12 hours ago, StarshipDirect said:

The M1 is a mechanical piece of sh*t and is expensive to operate. Big mistake for Poland to buy it. They’re gonna be operating a tank with a 50 year old engine. The K2 would best meet Polands requirements. 

 

trollface.jpg

[Beer]

20 hours ago, Żółć said:

I agree with you. In my oppinion Poland is stuck with Abrams for good, and it will eventually become our only MBT. But to be fair, there is still a lot of talk about K2 and K2PL in Poland, including military journalists and some politicians. The vice minister of defence talked, in today's article, about talks, that are held with Hyundai considering the aquasition of K2.

 

IMHO Running three different modern MBT families (plus fourth type in reserve) would be just mad and I don't think the Polish MOD is mad. That's what only the Gulf states do. 

[Alzoc]

They will already be running two different types of MBT (plus the T-72s in reseve) soon enough anyway. That is already madness enough.

 

At least with the Leopard 2 they have the German industry right at the border for logistical support if needed.

With the M1 they'll have to create all the logistical support that goes with it (plus maybe have to deal with some shenanigans with imperials units...).

They may be able to rely on existing US army infrastructure in Europe for a while but they'll have to create their own at some point, and that will probably cost them an arm.

The biggest problem will probably be the M1's weight (especially if they are taking the latest version), a lot of their infrastructures probably can't handle it and there is also the question of whether they'll have to replace their bridging equipment (there are a lot of rivers in Poland).

It's definitively a capable MBT but switching the logistics will be a nightmare and will be insanely expensive.

 

I understand that it is mainly a political purchase to have a guarantee against Russia, but IMO they should have stuck with their Leopard 2 (maybe keep modernizing them) and replace all of their MBTs at once in the future (K2 PL or any indigenous design) to keep only one type of MBT in service.

[Serge]

Purchasing Abrams MBT was one of the very very few option for Poland to reduce in a short piece of time there deficiencies. 
We have to remind they have many programmes to manage. 

[StarshipDirect]

3 hours ago, Ramlaen said:

 

trollface.jpg

No sir, anyone who’s been on M1s would tell you the same thing. Love the turbine in the winter but it’s old and needs too much oil. Many electrical problems with SEP V2. Not sure how reliable the V3 is but it wouldn’t surprise me if it has similar issues. 

[LoooSeR]

3 hours ago, Beer said:

 

IMHO Running three different modern MBT families (plus fourth type in reserve) would be just mad and I don't think the Polish MOD is mad. That's what only the Gulf states do. 

Gulf states and Soviet Union. And Russia. 

[Lord_James]

18 hours ago, StarshipDirect said:

The M1 is a mechanical piece of sh*t and is expensive to operate. Big mistake for Poland to buy it. They’re gonna be operating a tank with a 50 year old engine. The K2 would best meet Polands requirements. 

M1 availability rates are pretty comparable to other nations tanks, but I agree she is expensive and fuel hungry. 
 

Does anyone know if the AGT in the Abrams has had any mid life improvements? Would make sense, M1 is getting close to 40 years old by now, there has to have been some kind of technology improvements since the late 80s. 

[Żółć]

16 hours ago, Beer said:

I don't think the Polish MOD is mad.

We are trying hard to compete with the British MOD