Polish Armoured Vehicles

[Serge]

A new video about the Borsuk IFV :

 

 

[TINDALOS]

On 9/4/2019 at 2:32 PM, Militarysta said:

 

OK, so Poland is sending LOR for 60 Javelin FGM-147F/G CLU and 180 missailes as first bath.

 

Javeli will go to Terytorial Forces not Armed Forces. Whole need is ca.255 Javelin CLU and 1,5k missailes + other ATGM.

 

All is based here:

https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wojska_Obrony_Terytorialnej

 

Right now Terytorial Forces had 17 brigades till december 2019.

In eacht brigade we have: 5 infanty bde, and independent support company. In theory finall modell will look like this:

 

Terytorial Forces Infanty Bde: all :18 ATGM's

1st inf reg in support platoon - 3x ATGM Javelin

2th inf reg in support platoon - 3x ATGM Javelin

3th inf reg in support platoon - 3x ATGM Javelin

4th inf reg in support platoon - 3x ATGM Javelin

5th  inf reg in support platoon - 3x ATGM Javelin 

1st independent support platoon - 3x Spike ATGM

 

So whole terytorial forces need at least 255 Javelin ATGM and 51 Spike LR ATGM. Till now this 60 CLU and 180 missiles will be placed "temporary" on level "independent support platoon" but finall modell is like above.

 

======================================================

Other news in case ATGM in Poland:

 

Polish WITU is developing "Mosqito" ATGM system - it will be ready in 2022 whit unit cost (ATGM) ca 75k $. 80% components is producet in Poland.

 

 

 

 

 

And from the other side - Telesystem-Mesko is ending "The Pirate" system so laser guided ATGM:

 

 

Whit very interesting "APSproof" laser guidence system.

That MAKIFTA looks pretty similar to a Ukrainian RK-3 Corsar ATGM 

[Żółć]

@TINDALOS the inscription on the rocket says "MAKIETA", which in Polish means "MODEL/MOCKUP". The actual name of the ATGM is "Pirat" - "Pirate", and it is based on the RK-3, with the main differences lying in the internal components and guidance. 
 

Here is a good summary of the ATGM, although it is written in polish.

[Żółć]

Well, it is now official; https://www.gov.pl/web/obrona-narodowa/czolgi-abrams-dla-sil-zbrojnych-rp. Poland will acquire M1A2 Sepv3. Abrams tanks, more information is to be given by the Minister of National Defence, tomorrow morning. 

I wasn't sure if this info should be posted here or in the "United States Military Vehicle General: Guns, G*vins, and Gas Turbines" thread.

[Ramlaen]

I was going to post it here as well.

 

"July 14 this year (Wednesday) at 11.00 in Wesoła, Mariusz Błaszczak, the Minister of National Defense will provide details of the contract for the acquisition of M1A2 ABRAMS SEPv3 tanks by the Polish Armed Forces. The conference will also be attended by Jarosław Kaczyński, deputy prime minister, chairman of the Committee for National Security and Defense Affairs."

[alanch90]

Poland is like a kid on a toy store wanting to buy everything on sale. Next thing is gonna be a Cr2 just to complete the Western Tank Fanboy Collection, practicality be damned. 

Seriously, Abrams pretty much has zero commonality with Poland´s existing Leo 2 fleet. SEPv3 has an ADL which Leo 2 doesn´t feature, so those tanks may not even have ammunition commonality. I gotta wonder the point of this contract if Poland could have upgraded their Leopards to SEPv3-like levels by themselves or via de Germans. I guess this also means that the K2PL might be dead.

[Ramlaen]

Abrams actually has some commonalities with Leo2 unlike the T-72 being replaced.

[SH_MM]

34 minutes ago, alanch90 said:

SEPv3 has an ADL which Leo 2 doesn´t feature, so those tanks may not even have ammunition commonality

 

Leopard 2PL has an ADL, but AFAIK the American and German solutions are not compatible.

 

[mr.T]

1 hour ago, alanch90 said:

Poland is like a kid on a toy store wanting to buy everything on sale. Next thing is gonna be a Cr2 just to complete the Western Tank Fanboy Collection, practicality be damned. 

Seriously, Abrams pretty much has zero commonality with Poland´s existing Leo 2 fleet. SEPv3 has an ADL which Leo 2 doesn´t feature, so those tanks may not even have ammunition commonality. I gotta wonder the point of this contract if Poland could have upgraded their Leopards to SEPv3-like levels by themselves or via de Germans. I guess this also means that the K2PL might be dead.

Its just about politicians sucking up to US while Germany and EU pays for their toys. EU funds literally provide 4% of their GDP , so splashing 2% on defense is no big deal.

They get more funds than would be todays value of Marshall plan for whole of post ww2 Europe , alocated every 4 years. Other big euro spenders on arms are similarly heavily subsidised Hungarians and Romanians .

[Hal]

On 7/13/2021 at 1:45 PM, alanch90 said:

Poland is like a kid on a toy store wanting to buy everything on sale. Next thing is gonna be a Cr2 just to complete the Western Tank Fanboy Collection, practicality be damned. 

Seriously, Abrams pretty much has zero commonality with Poland´s existing Leo 2 fleet. SEPv3 has an ADL which Leo 2 doesn´t feature, so those tanks may not even have ammunition commonality. I gotta wonder the point of this contract if Poland could have upgraded their Leopards to SEPv3-like levels by themselves or via de Germans. I guess this also means that the K2PL might be dead.

More like a guy at a gun shop, whose neighborhood has been overrun by crack dealers and gangs. He needs something good, fast.

[Rico]

Relax guys. I do honestly think that it is something good for NATO and Europe as well. 

It is a clear statement towards Baltics and all neighbours and a clear message towards Russia.

Doesn't't matter if EU partly paid for this (including myself) or not.

[Beer]

1 hour ago, Rico said:

Relax guys. I do honestly think that it is something good for NATO and Europe as well. 

It is a clear statement towards Baltics and all neighbours and a clear message towards Russia.

Doesn't't matter if EU partly paid for this (including myself) or not.

 

Actually it's also a message to Germany. 

[Hal]

39 minutes ago, Beer said:

 

Actually it's also a message to Germany. 

Agreed. Don't involve Poland in MGCS, don't take the hint when they look to the K2PL... Okay, you get nothing.

[Żółć]

3 hours ago, Hal said:

More like a guy at a gun shop, whose neighborhood has been overrun by crack dealers and gangs. He needs something good, fast.

With all due respect, I cannot agree. Taking into account the current state of the Polish Navy, mechanized force or even air defence, I would argue that in those sectors, Poland has many more pressing issues. The acquisition of Abrams tanks, or any other tank, is not the most needed one right now. To put it simply, Poland does not require additional tanks, not in the first place at least. The whole situation is also rather unexpected, especially if we were to look upon the current "technical modernization plan", in which the "Wilk" program - new MBT, is meant to be procured after 2025.

[Sturgeon]

All the people trying to argue that Poland adopting the most proven and solid main battle tank on earth is a bad thing just because it's American is really giving me a laugh.

No, it's not the only worthy tank on earth. I'm not Damien. Maybe the K2 would have been better. But Poland needs assets and now. It's funny to me how the arguments revolve around effectively toenail clippings.

[Sturgeon]

1 hour ago, Żółć said:

With all due respect, I cannot agree. Taking into account the current state of the Polish Navy, mechanized force or even air defence, I would argue that in those sectors, Poland has many more pressing issues. The acquisition of Abrams tanks, or any other tank, is not the most needed one right now. To put it simply, Poland does not require additional tanks, not in the first place at least. The whole situation is also rather unexpected, especially if we were to look upon the current "technical modernization plan", in which the "Wilk" program - new MBT, is meant to be procured after 2025.

 

As far as I'm aware, and I'm conceding right off the bat that I'm not an expert, the tanks Poland has are either obsolete or inadequate in number. Poland is acquiring well more than 5 times the number of Abrams as they have Leo 2s on the upgrade path. First thing to note, these tanks exist and are ready to go (American tank production/conversion facilities are well under capacity by design) in short order. Second thing to note, these tanks share full operational compatibility with the largest tank operator in Europe.

I don't think these factors can be ignored. Polish authors are very quick to say "we have more pressing concerns", but do you? Your tanks are not in a good place! This doesn't seem like a bad buy to me.

[SH_MM]

13 hours ago, Hal said:

Agreed. Don't involve Poland in MGCS, don't take the hint when they look to the K2PL... Okay, you get nothing.

 

Poland did not look to the K2PL; the K2PL was an unsolicited offer by H. CEGIELSKI-POZNAŃ S.A. (a company with no experiences in making tanks or other forms of AFV) and Hyundai-Rotem. It was not an initative of the Polish government/army.

 

9 hours ago, Sturgeon said:

All the people trying to argue that Poland adopting the most proven and solid main battle tank on earth is a bad thing just because it's American is really giving me a laugh.

 

It is by all measures a bad deal for Poland. The whole deal is contradictory to the previous decades of Polish defence spending/doctrine.

• total contract value is supposedly up to $6 billion USD or up to $24 million per tank. Obviously in reality it doesn't work like that, because the contract also contains lots of other items (training equipment, simulators, spare parts, technical documentation, etc.) - but the only reason all of that is needed is the fact that the Abrams is a new type of tank for the Polish Army
• local industry involvement in M1A2 SEP v3 is apparently terribly low, at least according to Polish Twitter users. Currently it seems to be zero (all tanks refurbished and upgraded in the US with US standard parts, no "polonization"), but there is hope that support/maintenance contracts and production of spare parts could be taken over by Polish industry
• the M1A2 SEP v3's weight exceeds the maximum weight limit of many Polish bridges. Aside of the costs involved with fitting new torsion bars and running gear elements to the Leopard 2, the capacity of Polish bridges and AVLBs was cited by the Polish Army is a reason for the 60 tonnes weight limit of the Leopard 2PL tank.
• Poland has reportedly ordered up to 250 tanks, which is enough for four tank bataillons (which in the Polish Army have 58 tanks each), but there is a declared need (based on Polish MoDs plan) for twelve tank bataillons (4 Leopard 2 + 8 other)
• the Polish Army already had a program for a new generation of MBT as part of the Wilk program. The Polish industry had been working on a new design with unmanned turret and autoloader (basically a Polish Armata-lite) to fulfill the requiremenet
• in previous tank procurement/upgrade programs such as the Leopard 2PL, Poland handicapped itself (paying more, demanding less) in order to involve the local industry in the program. That also includes the transfer-of-technology and rights to a certain degree. All of this was useless with Wilk being essentially canceled thanks to the Abrams purchase
• the M1A2 SEP v3 is purchased using a "special budget" that is not part of the defence budget - where the money exactly comes remains unknown. There are rumors that PiS wants to use EU's Covid relief fund for the purchased, but that is tied to certain uses. There are also speculations that this special budget needs to be created by cutting other budgets
• the Polish military has a much more urgent need for other weapons than tanks
• the Polish MoD declared that Abrams tanks were needed to counter the T-14 Armata, which has yet to enter production

With the $6 bn USD, Poland could have spent one billion on modernizing OBRUM's tank plant and buy the licence to make 250 Leopard 2A7+ tanks, which would have been brand new rather than refurbished, upgraded old tanks. They even could have saved some money, as they wouldn't have the need to set up a complete new infrastructure for a new Leopard 2 variant. Or - which would be even better - a lot of other military projects could have been funded.

 

In terms of combat capabilities, the Abrams is obviously a lot better than the old T-72M1R and PT-91 - with the exception of the gunner's sight; even T-72M1R has third generation thermals by now.

 

9 hours ago, Sturgeon said:

As far as I'm aware, and I'm conceding right off the bat that I'm not an expert, the tanks Poland has are either obsolete or inadequate in number. Poland is acquiring well more than 5 times the number of Abrams as they have Leo 2s on the upgrade path.

 

Poland already has four tank batallions with Leopard 2 tanks; half of them have the Leopard 2A5 (which is/will be modernized with new third generation thermal imagers made by PCO S.A.) and the other half receiving the Leopard 2PL (which was delayed due to the wish for a greater involvement of the Polish industry). In total there are 249 Leopard 2 tanks in the Polish inventory of which 142 are going to be Leopard 2PLs; not sure where you got the "5 times the number".

 

As for the Polish tank force: it is too large. After the Cold War, Poland kept a huge tank force mostly for industry-political reasons - state-owned workers of OBRUM/Bumar-Łabędy needed to be kept employed. There also was the hope to gain a boost in foreign relations with the sale of Polish-made tanks. From a military perspective, this was a bad decision, as other - more important - capabalities received a lower priority or where even canceled.

In reality the obsolete T-72s (and even the PT-91s) had extremely bad avialability rates, broke down often and costed more money than they were worth. Poland should have downsized its tank fleet to a "normal" level (by post-Cold War standards) and modernized the rest of its military. That would have been a lot more reasonable than replacing obsolete tanks that were never needed in the first place.

 

9 hours ago, Sturgeon said:

Second thing to note, these tanks share full operational compatibility with the largest tank operator in Europe.

 

I didn't know that Greece operates the M1A2 SEP v3

[Sturgeon]

1 hour ago, SH_MM said:

In total there are 249 Leopard 2 tanks in the Polish inventory of which 142 are going to be Leopard 2PLs; not sure where you got the "5 times the number".

 

I had read that the buy was for 783 tanks.

[Rico]

In general I agree with many things you said especially regarding Polish industry and military losing a lot but I still think that we shouldn't see that negative.

 

- US are the main eFP support in Poland. Means they are working together closely which will benefit if they share material usage (M1, M88 and other support vehicles that might be covered by this deal).

US are spending a lot of money in Poland which is paid back in some way right now (Trump logic).

- Poland gets some real security boot on short term (Leo 2A7 would mean 5-7 years until the first ones would have arrived - and PiS is doing politics against Germany for a long time so Leo2 wouldn't be an option until different party takes over).

- Leo 2 wins against K2 because Poland and Norway will not acquire it (speculation I know)

- MGCS wins because Italian initiative is losing speed if Poland goes for M1 and Italy/Spain might join (speculation I know)  

[SH_MM]

1 hour ago, Sturgeon said:

I had read that the buy was for 783 tanks.

 

At that price, nobody would complain. But its "up to 250 Abrams" according to Polish government.

 

54 minutes ago, Rico said:

- Poland gets some real security boot on short term (Leo 2A7 would mean 5-7 years until the first ones would have arrived

 

I don't think that the M1A2 SEP v3 will become really operational with the Polish Army within less than five years. Polish MoD expects first batch by the end of 2022, but this is very optimistic and likely limited to at most a dozen tanks (which then will be used for training). The argument "Poland needs Abrams now, because Russia has the T-14" is also odd. 

 

56 minutes ago, Rico said:

and PiS is doing politics against Germany for a long time so Leo2 wouldn't be an option until different party takes over).

 

I've seen speculations in my Twitter feed regarding PiS's right-wing policies being a potential threat to the M1A2 SEP v3 (and the F-35) procurement. People there made analogies to Turkey's F-35 deal, basically stating "if PiS makes another stupid law, then Biden might cancel the deal". There were rumors (no idea how accurate these are), that the deal was already delayed because of some PiS-made law.

 

59 minutes ago, Rico said:

- MGCS wins because Italian initiative is losing speed if Poland goes for M1 and Italy/Spain might join (speculation I know)  

 

 

[Żółć]

12 hours ago, Sturgeon said:

 

As far as I'm aware, and I'm conceding right off the bat that I'm not an expert, the tanks Poland has are either obsolete or inadequate in number. Poland is acquiring well more than 5 times the number of Abrams as they have Leo 2s on the upgrade path. First thing to note, these tanks exist and are ready to go (American tank production/conversion facilities are well under capacity by design) in short order. Second thing to note, these tanks share full operational compatibility with the largest tank operator in Europe.

I don't think these factors can be ignored. Polish authors are very quick to say "we have more pressing concerns", but do you? Your tanks are not in a good place! This doesn't seem like a bad buy to me.

The tanks of the Polish Armed Forces are not the most modern ones, I have to agree with that, yet they are still adequate for our needs. And of course, Abrams is a superb vehicle. In itself it is not a "bad buy", but when put into perspective, it's pretty clear that it doesn't necessarily correspond to our needs. Our mechanized forces are using the BMP-1 IFV, air defence is compromised of SA-3, SA-6, SA-8 and SA-5, and the Navy is also in a dire situation with only two "Perry" frigates being, in theory, able to provide some other air defence than 23mm guns and MANPADs. In the aforementioned sectors, the acquisition of new equipment and systems is already delayed, and with additional money being spent on Abrams, it seems we will have to delay programs such as "Narew" - new AD, "Miecznik" - new frigates, even further. At the same time we just recently started to refurbish and modify our old T-72M/M1 to a new M1R variant, and although modernization of Leo2A4 is moving rather slowly, it is still something. So yes, Abrams is a great tank but the whole acquisition comes completely out of the blue. Lastly, with the acquisition of Abrams, the prospects for our tank production sector is dim, to say the least, as currently, there is no information about the participation of Polish industry in the process of maintenance not even mentioning production. This is sad as we exported our last tanks only 14 years ago and still have necessarily capabilities, no to build a great vehicle of course, but a good enough one.

[Hal]

3 hours ago, SH_MM said:

 

Poland did not look to the K2PL; the K2PL was an unsolicited offer by H. CEGIELSKI-POZNAŃ S.A. (a company with no experiences in making tanks or other forms of AFV) and Hyundai-Rotem. It was not an initative of the Polish government/army.

Not an initiative from Poland, agreed. But, Poland had months to publicly swear that the K2PL was not an option. They never said that (that I am aware of). Doesn't really matter who initiated the offer, it was out there. The MGCS project/politicians ignored a threat to their stranglehold on the future European tank market. They just paid a price for that. Some part of this (not the determining factor obviously) was a public "F*** You, ignore us again at your peril" to the Western European "leaders".

 

It is by all measures a bad deal for Poland. The whole deal is contradictory to the previous decades of Polish defence spending/doctrine.

• total contract value is supposedly up to $6 billion USD or up to $24 million per tank. Obviously in reality it doesn't work like that, because the contract also contains lots of other items (training equipment, simulators, spare parts, technical documentation, etc.) - but the only reason all of that is needed is the fact that the Abrams is a new type of tank for the Polish Army
• Anything not a T-72 or Leopard2 derivative would be new, this was/is going to happen
• local industry involvement in M1A2 SEP v3 is apparently terribly low, at least according to Polish Twitter users. Currently it seems to be zero (all tanks refurbished and upgraded in the US with US standard parts, no "polonization"), but there is hope that support/maintenance contracts and production of spare parts could be taken over by Polish industry
• True, but Poland has decided that they are in a hurry. They get to do that. Poland wanted to be a partner in the MGCS, but the arrogance (possibly just greed) of the Franco/German team (and governments?) was obvious. So they lost a big chunk of the near-term MBT market.
• the M1A2 SEP v3's weight exceeds the maximum weight limit of many Polish bridges. Aside of the costs involved with fitting new torsion bars and running gear elements to the Leopard 2, the capacity of Polish bridges and AVLBs was cited by the Polish Army is a reason for the 60 tonnes weight limit of the Leopard 2PL tank.
• Any idea what the MGCS will weigh? Since it is currently Vaporware, I don't think anyone does. I don't think Polish infrastructure limits were/are a key design consideration
• Poland has reportedly ordered up to 250 tanks, which is enough for four tank bataillons (which in the Polish Army have 58 tanks each), but there is a declared need (based on Polish MoDs plan) for twelve tank bataillons (4 Leopard 2 + 8 other)
• Not "up to" according to my reading - "250 M1A2 SEP v3, along with support vehicles"
• the Polish Army already had a program for a new generation of MBT as part of the Wilk program. The Polish industry had been working on a new design with unmanned turret and autoloader (basically a Polish Armata-lite) to fulfill the requiremenet
• This program is officially continuing, who knows where it might lead, but it wasn't putting tracks on the ground anytime soon
• in previous tank procurement/upgrade programs such as the Leopard 2PL, Poland handicapped itself (paying more, demanding less) in order to involve the local industry in the program. That also includes the transfer-of-technology and rights to a certain degree. All of this was useless with Wilk being essentially canceled thanks to the Abrams purchase
• Officially not cancelled, in reality, who knows. Obviously Poland felt the need (for many reasons, I think) to gain a lot of capability, quickly. The Wilk program didn't seem to credibly offer that.
• the M1A2 SEP v3 is purchased using a "special budget" that is not part of the defence budget - where the money exactly comes remains unknown. There are rumors that PiS wants to use EU's Covid relief fund for the purchased, but that is tied to certain uses. There are also speculations that this special budget needs to be created by cutting other budgets
• Poland's choice. They seem to have decided to try a different path. They're calling it a "pilot programme", I guess we'll see how it goes
• the Polish military has a much more urgent need for other weapons than tanks
• Poland appears to disagree. If I lived in their neighborhood, I wouldn't take a chance on having inferior tanks
• the Polish MoD declared that Abrams tanks were needed to counter the T-14 Armata, which has yet to enter production
• And who knows if it ever will, but it might, and if it's many issues are resolved, production could ramp up quickly, too late then to "start" a program to counter it. Regardless, they need to replace their T-72s and eventually their PT-91s to potentially combat lots of T-72b3s and T-90s

With the $6 bn USD, Poland could have spent one billion on modernizing OBRUM's tank plant and buy the licence to make 250 Leopard 2A7+ tanks, which would have been brand new rather than refurbished, upgraded old tanks. They even could have saved some money, as they wouldn't have the need to set up a complete new infrastructure for a new Leopard 2 variant. Or - which would be even better - a lot of other military projects could have been funded.

Timing matters. They would start getting "new" Leo2s in about 2030

 

In terms of combat capabilities, the Abrams is obviously a lot better than the old T-72M1R and PT-91 - with the exception of the gunner's sight; even T-72M1R has third generation thermals by now.

 

 

Poland already has four tank batallions with Leopard 2 tanks; half of them have the Leopard 2A5 (which is/will be modernized with new third generation thermal imagers made by PCO S.A.) and the other half receiving the Leopard 2PL (which was delayed due to the wish for a greater involvement of the Polish industry). In total there are 249 Leopard 2 tanks in the Polish inventory of which 142 are going to be Leopard 2PLs; not sure where you got the "5 times the number".

 

As for the Polish tank force: it is too large. After the Cold War, Poland kept a huge tank force mostly for industry-political reasons - state-owned workers of OBRUM/Bumar-Łabędy needed to be kept employed. There also was the hope to gain a boost in foreign relations with the sale of Polish-made tanks. From a military perspective, this was a bad decision, as other - more important - capabalities received a lower priority or where even canceled.

Again, Poland disagrees. A survey of their geopolitical situation leads me to agree with them. The landscape has changed drastically since 2014, they are adapting to the changes

 

In reality the obsolete T-72s (and even the PT-91s) had extremely bad avialability rates, broke down often and costed more money than they were worth. Poland should have downsized its tank fleet to a "normal" level (by post-Cold War standards) and modernized the rest of its military. That would have been a lot more reasonable than replacing obsolete tanks that were never needed in the first place.

What's "normal"? They did downsize. The situation changed.

 

 

I didn't know that Greece operates the M1A2 SEP v3

 

[Sturgeon]

Pardon, the 786 figure I was remembering was from something different (US SEPv3 procurement). Been rather busy the last few days, I'll take that one on the chin.

I still think Abrams is good for Poland and the negative reaction is basically Polish people's natural skepticism of their own milproc. Which is healthy.

[Ramlaen]

4 hours ago, SH_MM said:

but the only reason all of that is needed is the fact that the Abrams is a new type of tank for the Polish Army

 

From what I understand the buy includes all sorts of things (like medical vehicles) that are not related to the Abrams purchase.

[BaronTibere]

I've seen posted elsewhere that poland is severely lacking in transports for heavier tanks, and garages for even the existing leopard fleet.