StuG III Thread (and also other German vehicles I guess)

[Alzoc]

KF51 Panther moving and firing :

 

 

[Lord_James]

4 hours ago, Alzoc said:

Leopard 1 retrofitted with a 105 mm Cockerill turret :

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

I think this beats out that Ukrainian T-55 / T-64 hybrid for ugliest tank. 

[Alzoc]

10 hours ago, Lord_James said:

I think this beats out that Ukrainian T-55 / T-64 hybrid for ugliest tank. 

 

Cockerill turrets are usually fugly ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

Whether this turret is worth replacing the 1A5 turret I don't know (optics probably, firepower wise probably nothing meaningful). It does remove the need for a loader so that's always a plus for small budget country.

I would think that the country that still operate the Leopard 1 as an MBT and want to upgrade it, would like something more significant (probably a 120 mm along with a fix of the obsolescences).

[watch_your_fire]

7 hours ago, Alzoc said:

 

Cockerill turrets are usually fugly ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

Whether this turret is worth replacing the 1A5 turret I don't know (optics probably, firepower wise probably nothing meaningful). It does remove the need for a loader so that's always a plus for small budget country.

I would think that the country that still operate the Leopard 1 as an MBT and want to upgrade it, would like something more significant (probably a 120 mm along with a fix of the obsolescences).

From the last time someone tried a Leopard 1 with a 120mm we know that the gun is too large to fit the turret without substantially reducing the internal space available to the crew.

You could maybe design a new turret, but at that point your budget might allow for a newer tank anyway, so why bother. I guess the cockerill turret is at least a cheap upgrade, probably meant for the south american market (Chile, Brazil, Ecuador). I doubt anyone would buy it but who knows.

[Beer]

With that column under the turret it looks more like an SPG than a tank, certainly like some of those various hybrids built on top of all those surplus WW2 tanks in 50' and 60'.

[SH_MM]

To be fair the Leopard 1 wasn't really designed with modern ergonomics in mind, the Cockerill 3105 should be a massive upgrade over the old 1A5 and they used to offer a 120 mm variant. So the turret is certainly a good choice (though likely rather expensive given the typical Leopard 1A5 operator's budgets), but the integration seems a bit shoddy.

[SH_MM]

On 12/21/2020 at 11:29 AM, SH_MM said:

There also have been new developments regarding the SHORAD systems that Germany plans to procure as part of the NNbS project. First of all, Diehl presented its new IRIS-T SLS Mark III system, which is based on the Eagle V 6x6 variant and contains two slightly angled up shafts each containing two IRIS-T missiles. Two radar options - either SAAB's Giraffe 1X or Hensoldt's Spexer X-band radar - are offered. The vehicle will be equipped with the Fortion battlefield management system from Airbus (already in service for MANTIS and LeFlaSys) and a FLW 200 remote weapon station for self-defence.

 

 

The high-maneuverability of the IRIS-T missile enables the vehicle to provide 360° protection despite its fixed launchers. It is also claimed to be able to engage targets while on the move. Lock-on before launch with the missiles is only possible in a small sector (i.e. against targets facing the launcher), otherwise the system will utilize lock-on after launch.

 

They apparently built that thing 

 

Radar array is now slightly recessed behind the launchers' "muzzles", so it is not as tall as in the renders - but still too tall.

[Chanou]

Hello

My pics of Eurosatory :

KF51 Panther : https://bit.ly/3MQI4TU

EMBT : https://bit.ly/3aRiXTB

2A7 : https://bit.ly/3QqK3l1

Lynx : https://bit.ly/3zIlCJH

Boxer (including tracked version) : https://bit.ly/3O1rPoj

Latest fuchs : https://bit.ly/3b6wPts

I'm still at eurosatory tomorow, let me know on discord if u need something, i'll try to get a bit of time to take a shoot.

[Voltzz]

Does anyone know the source for these images of the elevation/depression mechanism on the KMW RCT120 (on the Boxer Tracked). They were posted on twitter by vpn test and linked too by Nicholas Drummond

Spoiler

 

[Lord_James]

 

Not quite as extreme as elke, but probably very similar

[Voltzz]

also that large calibre coaxial looks like it elevates independent of the main gun. Very strv 2000 like.  

[FORMATOSE]

21 hours ago, Voltzz said:

also that large calibre coaxial looks like it elevates independent of the main gun. Very strv 2000 like.  

 

Even before that :

 

[Serge]

The best ever coaxial weapon. 

[N-L-M]

On 8/7/2022 at 6:35 PM, Voltzz said:

source for these images

The VPN TEST person makes 3d models of militaria.

None of them are guaranteed to be accurate to any extent.

I'd also note that such a proposed dual-elevation-axis approach will inevitably be borderline impossible to stabilize on at least one of the elevation axes if not both.

[Voltzz]

This KMW patent shown on @Andrei_bt 's site, seems to show a similar elevation mechanism:

Spoiler

And while i cant track down a source for this, many news sites are reporting that KMW is working on elevation up to +30° for the RCT120

[Wiedzmin]

 

M48GA2 gun cradle, Leo1 alike structure(because of L7)

[Voltzz]

 

A concept for an air defence boxer using iris-t (SLS?) presented by ARGE NNbS (Diehl, Rheinmetall & Hensoldt)

[SH_MM]

A few Boxer models proposed by KMW for the German medium forces:

 

Anti-tank variant

 

Anti-drone system (already ordered for the VJTF 2023)

 

Two different mortar options:

 

Fire support

 

"Not-IFV" that is an IFV

[Voltzz]

7 hours ago, SH_MM said:

"Not-IFV" that is an IFV

very nice pictures

on the "Gruppenfahrzeug" what do they mean by 'capable/capability of drone defence'?

autocannon elevation, sensors,...

and the Anti-tank variant looks very similar to the proposed MBDA/Rheinmetall close-air-defence (NNbS) version.

[Alzoc]

50 minutes ago, Voltzz said:

on the "Gruppenfahrzeug" what do they mean by 'capable/capability of drone defence'?

autocannon elevation, sensors,...

Airburst 40 mm grenade coupled with a radar.

Limited range but such systems has been experimented with and use already existing tech (so quick and easy solution which can be integrated on pretty much anything):

 

 

It will only work against small recon UAV. But as the war in Ukraine proved, those can still pose a significant threat (mostly indirectly by acting as spotter).

[Voltzz]

18 minutes ago, Alzoc said:

Airburst 40 mm grenade coupled with a radar.

Limited range but such systems has been experimented with and use already existing tech (so quick and easy solution which can be integrated on pretty much anything):

Sorry, i dont mean the dedicated anti-drone version with the gmg.

In the slide for the ifv version the last bulletpoint is "Befähigung zur Drohnenabwehr"(capable/capability of drone defence)

But i dont recognize any radar or visual sensor for that in the picture and im not sure if the elevation of the 30mm autocannon (45°maybe) would be enough

 

[Alzoc]

My bad, I didn't read correctly.

 

My guess is that it is more of a marginal capability against drones than anything.

Opticals sensor are capable of tracking and engaging an UAV nowadays though you must first detect them, which is much harder without dedicated sensors.

 

More concerning than the elevation is the calibre. Sure 30 mm can technically have airburst ammunitions but anything smaller than 35 mm will be pretty anaemic and will have to compensate the small charge by putting more ammunition in the air. It's pretty much only for self defence as a last ditch option (much like anti aircraft HMG on MBT roofs). Better than nothing but you won't protect a combat group with that.

 

And even 35 mm is cutting it close as far as airburst power goes. You still have to fire a significant amount of rounds to have an effect :

Spoiler

 

 

A mere increase of 5 mm in diameter (30 mm to 35 mm) grants roughly 36% more volume inside the ammunition for a given length (if you go from 30 mm to 40 mm that's a 78% increase). You can use this volume to fit more explosive or beads in each round meaning a bigger effective blast range and a higher chance to disable the target with fewer shots.

[SH_MM]

12 hours ago, Voltzz said:

very nice pictures

on the "Gruppenfahrzeug" what do they mean by 'capable/capability of drone defence'?

autocannon elevation, sensors,...

 

KMW has showcased that a software update to the Puma's turret and a RF sensor (direction finder) allows it to engage micro-UAVs. I have posted earlier about this in this topic.

 

Below is a marketing photo from Eurosatory 2022, showcasing a Dedrone RF360 sensor on a RCT-30 turret mounted on a Boxer. The sensor would detect radio signals as used to control (micro-)UAVs within a 5 kilometres range and determine the direction from which the UAV is approaching. The software updated to the FCS would then allow (probably automatically) tracking the drone and engaging it.

 

  

12 hours ago, Voltzz said:

and the Anti-tank variant looks very similar to the proposed MBDA/Rheinmetall close-air-defence (NNbS) version.

 

That is MBDA's Multi-Purpose Combat Vehicle (MPCV) turret, which can be configured for anti-tank use or air-defence use by integrating different missile. It was not proposed by Rheinmetall for the NNbS program, only by MBDA.

[Voltzz]

1 hour ago, SH_MM said:

KMW has showcased that a software update to the Puma's turret and a RF sensor (direction finder) allows it to engage micro-UAVs. I have posted earlier about this in this topic.

Could you point me to the post? Im having a hard time finding it.

 

1 hour ago, SH_MM said:

Below is a marketing photo from Eurosatory 2022, showcasing a Dedrone RF360 sensor on a RCT-30 turret mounted on a Boxer. The sensor would detect radio signals as used to control (micro-)UAVs within a 5 kilometres range and determine the direction from which the UAV is approaching. The software updated to the FCS would then allow (probably automatically) tracking the drone and engaging it.

the integration on the turret looks a bit cluttered, i hope they find a better way of doing this. I also think an RF sensor is a solution very much focused on commercial quadcopters. An IR sensor could be more versatile.

 

1 hour ago, SH_MM said:

That is MBDA's Multi-Purpose Combat Vehicle (MPCV) turret, which can be configured for anti-tank use or air-defence use by integrating different missile. It was not proposed by Rheinmetall for the NNbS program, only by MBDA.

Ah, thanks, so it is the same turrets just with different effectors.

I do remember Rheinmetall being involved in some way though. If i understand this press release correctly they seem to have some role in developing/building the turret. But still weird that they are involved both with MBDA and with Diehl for NNbS.

[ZloyKrolik]

 

A throwback to the original topic. ;-)