General AFV Thread

[Gun Ready]

250 Marder 1 A3 are available at Rheimetall. Hope, they are mostly functional. Would be pretty good stuff requested by Ukrainian Army. Reliable, simple to operate and even after 50 years in use a good AFV.

[Rico]

Same number of Leo 1A5 are available at other German company plus other Leo1 based platforms.

[Gun Ready]

The question is the availability of the 105 mm x 617 ammunition. Closest ammo stocks to Ukraine are in Greece and Turkey as they have this tank still in service.

 

[N-L-M]

War stocks of 105mm ammo are all over the world. The US also keeps substantial stocks in war reserve, as the Stryker MGS still uses the 105. The US has also very recently proven willing to supply advanced weaponry to Ukraine, so perhaps even warshot M900 isn't out of the question.

[Gun Ready]

Is the Stryker 105 ammo compatible to gun L7A3 pressure wise?

[Gun Ready]

Melnyk requested from Scholz one Marder per day delivered by Rheinmetall to Ukrainian Army instead to Bundeswehr. This Bundeswehr cannot accept because the 78ea Marders 1A5 are urgently needed in the Nutzungsdauerverlaengerung version, see

 https://www.google.de/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwidvJ23r4n3AhWrRPEDHXpGCHIQFnoECAkQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fesut.de%2F2020%2F01%2Fmeldungen%2Fruestung2%2F17991%2Fnutzungsdauerverlaengerung-schuetzenpanzer-marder-1-a5%2F&usg=AOvVaw3CzBrXliGItDpf0s7tLQpS

as the PUMAs lack still reliability and spare parts supply.

[Gun Ready]

Another interesting article written by Hilmes about Marder 1 history from 1969 till today

https://rheinmetall-defence.com/en/rheinmetall_defence/systems_and_products/vehicle_systems/armoured_tracked_vehicles/marder50/index.php

The service life extension is interesting in regard to MELLS ATGM-system replacing MILAN and TOW.

The EuroSpike missile with tandem SC warhead gives comparable performance like Javelin but can be fired under armour. This shows advantage in fire position mobility.

 

[SH_MM]

6 hours ago, Gun Ready said:

This Bundeswehr cannot accept because the 78ea Marders 1A5 are urgently needed in the Nutzungsdauerverlaengerung version, see

 

Worth noting that 244 Marders receive the lifetime extension (Nutzungsdauerverlängerung).

[N-L-M]

7 hours ago, Gun Ready said:

Is the Stryker 105 ammo compatible to gun L7A3 pressure wise?

Good point, M900 is likely off the table, but the rest should be fine.
Maybe even M833 if it's still stored in some war emergency arsenal somewhere.
Otherwise gonna have to buy APFSDS off someone else and only take HE types from the US stocks.

[Alzoc]

16 hours ago, N-L-M said:

Good point, M900 is likely off the table, but the rest should be fine.
Maybe even M833 if it's still stored in some war emergency arsenal somewhere.
Otherwise gonna have to buy APFSDS off someone else and only take HE types from the US stocks.

I'm more concerned about when those ammo were manufactured.

Most (if not all) explosives have a limited shelf life, and if the ammo were in storage for too long or stored in poor conditions it would increase the risk of duds and misfire.

 

If it's to have the same problem than with some old ATGM and manpads coming from a forgotten stock and donated to Ukraine to get rid of it, I'm not sure it is really worth it.

 

On top of it, if we are speaking about donating old vehicles, there is the problem of spare parts to consider. If they aren't produced anymore the vehicles are almost worthless since they will last a very limited time or you will be forced to cannibalize others. I don't know if spare parts are still produced for the Marder 1A3 or Leo 1 (possibly). Not even talking about the necessary training time on vehicles that Ukrainian forces never used.

 

For now I think it's best to stick with old soviets vehicles that the Ukrainian know how to operate and maintain.

[Laser Shark]

Marders will still be used for years to come in both the Bundeswehr (although they are indeed slowly phasing them out) and countries like Chile, Indonesia and Jordan, so it shouldn’t be too much of a hassle to get spares for these. In fact, they can probably acquire/cannibalize the German ones as they are phased out too.

 

It gets more sketchy when it comes to the Leo 1s (the tank, not the support vehicles) and the Gepards, but there are a few countries that are still using these as well, so they must be getting spares from somewhere.

[Alzoc]

47 minutes ago, Laser Shark said:

but there are a few countries that are still using them too, so they must be getting spares from somewhere.

 

A small nuance on that point.

Recent AFV sale contracts often include maintenance support by the manufacturer for a set number of years.

Some older contracts simply included a stock of spare parts delivered at the same time as the vehicles and the clients was responsible for maintenance.

So that a vehicle is still in service doesn't mean that spare parts are still being produced, it could be simply using stock or a cannibalization of existing vehicle.

 

If I take France for example, we could technically give the Ukrainians VAB or even AMX-10P. The first is being phased out and replaced by the Griffon and the Serval and the second is in reserve and only used by the OPFOR for training purposes. There is no spare parts production for the 10P anymore and as for the VAB (which is technically still in service) only some of the parts are still being produced, not all of them.

On top of that those vehicle haven't any operational potential left and so are in very poor shape.

[Rico]

1 hour ago, Laser Shark said:

Marders will still be used for years to come in both the Bundeswehr (although they are indeed slowly phasing them out) and countries like Chile, Indonesia and Jordan, so it shouldn’t be too much of a hassle to get spares for these. In fact, they can probably acquire/cannibalize the German ones as they are phased out too.

 

It gets more sketchy when it comes to the Leo 1s (the tank, not the support vehicles) and the Gepards, but there are a few countries that are still using these as well, so they must be getting spares from somewhere.

No problem with Leo 1 spares. Greece has many, Turkey as well but we have plenty of spare parts in DK, too (we still take them out once per year for some hot rounds). I am pretty sure you will find many parts in stocks in Norway as well ;-).

[N-L-M]

Also, given that there's a war going on, long term concerns about spares availability is at best a second order concern, and at worst of only academic interest.

[ZloyKrolik]

Until you need some part to make your donated Marder functional. Stuff breaks all the time. Especially old AFVs.

[Beer]

On 11/5/2021 at 5:31 PM, SH_MM said:

All offers in the Czech IFV program are incompatible with the requirements (lacking documentation, not revealing required performance parameters or not offering enough local workshare). Apparently program is paused, now a decision has to be made how the program should advance.

 

The outcome of the tender was, mildly said, weird at best. Now we are in a situation when we desperately need to buy the IFVs anyway but for sure for a much worse price since everything got much more expensive in the past year. I don't want to go into a blame game but for sure the previous government didn't manage the whole project well. According to various gossip the "would-be winner" was the CV90 but whether that is true or not isn't relevant anymore. Let's see what and how will the new government acquire now. 

 

Meanwhile there is a lot of talk about MBT acquisition. At the moment it is hard to speak about numbers or types but I dare to bet that there won't be an opened tender. I expect a direct government-government deal. I personally think it will be done with US and I guess it will be two battalions in the better scenario and one battalion in the worst (ATM we have only one battalion of T-72M4CZ and an uncertain number of reserve T-72M1 - part of the original 110 or so was transfered to Ukraine). 

[TINDALOS]

Two possiblities: Either Kimarta has an autoloader (which suggest a 125mm maingun) or one crewman stays in the tank.

[Stimpy75]

[TokyoMorose]

 

It's a quite and dirty google translation, but it would seem that yet again, ASCOD 42 is pure bone hurting juice when driving. There is something fundamentally wrong with the vehicle.

[Serge]

An article in English 

https://www.edrmagazine.eu/the-slovak-mod-selects-the-cv90-as-preferred-bidder-for-its-ifv-programme

[Beer]

Unofficially our infamous tender was also won by the CV-90 Mk. IV. Let's see if Slovak polititians actually buy them or piss themselves like our previous government (we will probably buy them later anyway but for much higher price than according to the original offer). 

[Serge]

An article about armoured design trend in French by Marc Chassillan. 
https://www.frstrategie.org/sites/default/files/documents/publications/defense-et-industries/2022/2.pdf

It deals with protection, fire power, mobility... not very technical but very interesting for people uninformed with French weaknesses. 

[SH_MM]

KDNS also showing off a new tank at Eurosatory. Some speculate that this is a refined version of the EMBT.

 

[Clan_Ghost_Bear]

Not seeing any Leclerc resemblance in that turret. If anything, it looks closest to that OMT concept model from a few years ago

[Beer]

Tatra Treva 30 heavy ARV

 

The new Tatra armoured cabin for Belgian army (at least). For being just an armoured truck it offers high STANAG level 3 protection. 

 

All photos takeen from here.