Ukrainian Civil War Thread: All Quiet on the Sturgeon Front

[NoFox]

3 hours ago, Pardus said:

 

 

There's a clear cut difference between bringing down dictatorships and terrorist states, versus invading a democratic country.

 

But I guess your forum emblem explains it all. The Cold War is over, the genocidal Soviet Union fell, trying to bring it back is the definition of insanity and backwards thinking. 

 

So Rojava isn't a democratic country?

[LoooSeR]

9 hours ago, Pardus said:

 

 

There's a clear cut difference between bringing down dictatorships and terrorist states, versus invading a democratic country.

 

But I guess your forum emblem explains it all. The Cold War is over, the genocidal Soviet Union fell, trying to bring it back is the definition of insanity and backwards thinking. 

 

There is no "clear difference". Current Ukrainian state us viewed by Russian one as terrorist dictatorship, lol.

 

My emblem explains that i am mod of this forum. I'm not one bringing USSR back. President clearly said what he thinks about USSR, current political powers in Russia are anti-communists.

[Laviduce]

On 2/25/2022 at 11:33 PM, Pardus said:

Hopefully Russias invasion bogs down, becomes extremely costly, and the troops slowly realize invading and waging an aggressive war against an indepedent nation in the 21st century is absolutely insane.

I sincerely hope you said the same thing about the US, UK when they decided to invade  Iraq, bombed Syria, funded "moderate rebels" in Syria, toppled the government of Ukraine, destroyed Libya, etc. in the 21st century.

 

Just a reminder,  foreign backed regime change coups are as legal as military invasions.  They are both illegal according to international law.  The hypocrisy and double standards are mind blowing. It highlights how  conditioned / brainwashed people have become. This is absolutely surreal.

 

To be fair the US and the satellite states that participated in these actions should have been sanctioned, particularly after it was determined that they had lied to the world, repeatedly. For some "strange reason" this did not happen. Hundreds of thousands of deaths have accrued, millions of refugees and trillions of dollars in damages were generated in the past 20 years because of the actions of the US and its enablers.

 

The 2003 Iraq war and the lack of response to aggression  was a watershed moment in World history. It demonstrated that might makes right and that "international law" including the UN are worthless / pointless in the grand scheme of things.

 

The US should have been severely sanctioned  for what it did in Ukraine, let alone the other mentioned places. The regime change coup in Ukraine in 2014 was one US coup too far. If the shoe would have been on other foot, the US  would have not been thrilled if Russia or any other nation would have had the "brilliant" idea to send their version of Vicky Nuland Cookie Monster to Mexico or Canada to bring  about an Anti-US regime change right at the border of the US. If we use the Cuban/Turkey missile crisis as an example we all know what these actions could and would lead to. Neither Russia, China, or any other US rival was dumb enough to attempt this in the past 50+ years.

[Toxn]

The propaganda out there right now is insane...

[Collimatrix]

23 minutes ago, Toxn said:

The propaganda out there right now is insane...

So...

I have a question, and I don't have an answer.

Right now, in English-language "respectable" news sources, I am seeing a lot of stories of Ukrainian bravery and staunch resistance and heavy Russian losses.  I am pretty sure that some of these stories might even be true.

But who exactly is collating these stories and publishing them to English-speaking audiences?  Does Ukraine have an incredibly slick media interface to their American allies that knows exactly what buttons to push?  Or am I watching mostly American self-deception?

I am increasingly convinced it is the latter.

[Pardus]

I can't believe the people on this forum right now... sad sight.

[holoween]

30 minutes ago, Collimatrix said:

So...

I have a question, and I don't have an answer.

Right now, in English-language "respectable" news sources, I am seeing a lot of stories of Ukrainian bravery and staunch resistance and heavy Russian losses.  I am pretty sure that some of these stories might even be true.

But who exactly is collating these stories and publishing them to English-speaking audiences?  Does Ukraine have an incredibly slick media interface to their American allies that knows exactly what buttons to push?  Or am I watching mostly American self-deception?

I am increasingly convinced it is the latter.

Most seems to be ukrainian civilians videos sowing russian troop movements, some nato intel and some official ukrainian statements.

So where the fighting is can be plotted reasonably accurate.

The big black box is how many troops the ukrainians are actually loosing themselves.

[Pardus]

2 hours ago, Laviduce said:

I sincerely hope you said the same thing about the US, UK when they decided to invade  Iraq, bombed Syria, funded "moderate rebels" in Syria, toppled of the government of Ukraine, destroyed Libya, etc. in the 21st century.

 

Just a reminder,  foreign backed regime change coups are as legal as military invasions.  They are both illegal according to international law.  The hypocrisy and double standards are mind blowing. It highlights how  conditioned / brainwashed people have become. This is absolutely surreal.

 

To be fair the US and the satellite states that participated in these actions should have been sanctioned, particularly after it was determined that they had lied to the world, repeatedly. For some "strange reason" this did not happen. Hundreds of thousands of deaths have accrued, millions of refugees and trillions of dollars in damages were generated in the past 20 years because of the actions of the US and its enablers.

 

The 2003 Iraq war and the lack of response to aggression  was a watershed moment in World history. It demonstrated that might makes right and that "international law" including the UN are worthless / pointless in the grand scheme of things.

 

The US should have been severely sanctioned  for what it did in Ukraine, let alone the other mentioned places. The regime change coup in Ukraine in 2014 was one US coup too far. If the shoe would have been on other foot, the US  would have not been thrilled if Russia or any other nation would have had the "brilliant" idea to send their version of Vicky Nuland Cookie Monster to Mexico or Canada to bring  about an Anti-US regime change right at the border of the US. If we use the Cuban/Turkey missile crisis as an example we all know what these actions could and would lead to. Neither Russia, China, or any other US rival was dumb enough to attempt this in the past 50+ years.

 

You're so goddamn far off the mark is astonishing. Tell me, when did Ukraine, a democratic country, attack another country with chemical weapons? When did they commit crimes against humanity? When did they become a country controlled by terrorist groups? Things Iraq, Syria & Afghanistan were seperately guilty off.

 

Exactly what is it you consider an acceptable form of government type? Do you wish for people to be systematically oppressed by their government? 

 

Dictatorships & terrorist states are a thing all nations should strive to erradicate, not leave to grow and potentially spill over into other countries via aggressive actions. 

[RobertV]

55 minutes ago, Collimatrix said:

So...

I have a question, and I don't have an answer.

Right now, in English-language "respectable" news sources, I am seeing a lot of stories of Ukrainian bravery and staunch resistance and heavy Russian losses.  I am pretty sure that some of these stories might even be true.

But who exactly is collating these stories and publishing them to English-speaking audiences?  Does Ukraine have an incredibly slick media interface to their American allies that knows exactly what buttons to push?  Or am I watching mostly American self-deception?

I am increasingly convinced it is the latter.

 

 

 

Well,  even the BBC isn't swallowing Ukranian bullshit like they did in 2014   And truly there are a lot of laughable claims like a MiG-29 claiming a pair of Su-35's and what not.    A video used from Syria to showcase Ukrainians whipping out a column of Russian troops.   Zmeiny island garrison  we're   supposedly a squad of border guards refused to surrender and died bravely.    Non  of them were killed, they all gave up, and now in Crimea.   

 

 

[Laser Shark]

3 hours ago, Laviduce said:

I sincerely hope you said the same thing about the US, UK when they decided to invade  Iraq, bombed Syria, funded "moderate rebels" in Syria, toppled of the government of Ukraine, destroyed Libya, etc. in the 21st century.

 

These previous western endeavours were ill thought out and costly mistakes, even if they got rid of some truly despicable people in the process (and whose faith was way less than they deserved). This move by Russia, however, could easily turn out to be an even greater mistake than all of them put together.

[Alzoc]

3 hours ago, Collimatrix said:

So...

I have a question, and I don't have an answer.

Right now, in English-language "respectable" news sources, I am seeing a lot of stories of Ukrainian bravery and staunch resistance and heavy Russian losses.  I am pretty sure that some of these stories might even be true.

 

Part of it is a "western" bias of the journalists, but also the fact that Russian sources are basically non-existent. AFAIK the only things Russian press are reporting are more or less based on official statement from the Russian ministry of defense (which is neither a neutral source nor particularly verbose). The main problem is that we have only one side of the narrative, which for a conflict is less than ideal. @LoooSeRand other Russian speaking members are in the best place to gives us the point of view reported from the Russian side.

 

3 hours ago, Collimatrix said:

But who exactly is collating these stories and publishing them to English-speaking audiences?  Does Ukraine have an incredibly slick media interface to their American allies that knows exactly what buttons to push?  Or am I watching mostly American self-deception?

I am increasingly convinced it is the latter.

 

As for who is collecting the information, most of it comes from journalist of generalist news agencies (Reuters, AFP, Associated Press, etc) which have people on the ground and the rest comes from the Ukrainian side of the war (either official or civilian) since there is barely anything coming out from the Russian side.

Very few newspaper or TV channel still have dedicated war correspondents and most of what's coming out in western press is an amalgam and a global interpretation of various snippets bought from various news agency. Meaning that at the roots, all of the factual information comes either from probably less than 10 journalist on the ground or from the Ukrainian side.

So very few sources and even less which are somewhat neutral and factual.

[LoooSeR]

1 hour ago, Pardus said:

I can't believe the people on this forum right now... sad sight.

Yeah, sad people like you view the world like it id some sort of book for teenagers about fighting evil by forces of white knights with good guy powers. You can leave this dark place of unwashed peasants.

[mr.T]

Prototype IFV seen on streets of Kharkiw

 

It was presented a year or so ago as BMP Kevlar-E

[Toxn]

3 hours ago, Collimatrix said:

So...

I have a question, and I don't have an answer.

Right now, in English-language "respectable" news sources, I am seeing a lot of stories of Ukrainian bravery and staunch resistance and heavy Russian losses.  I am pretty sure that some of these stories might even be true.

But who exactly is collating these stories and publishing them to English-speaking audiences?  Does Ukraine have an incredibly slick media interface to their American allies that knows exactly what buttons to push?  Or am I watching mostly American self-deception?

I am increasingly convinced it is the latter.

As am I. 

 

You guys have always been incredible at propaganda.

[Eliz]

1 hour ago, LoooSeR said:

Yeah, sad people like you view the world like it id some sort of book for teenagers about fighting evil by forces of white knights with good guy powers. You can leave this dark place of unwashed peasants.

Thats fault of russians, you open russian news website and what you see?! Putin is great, nato and western nations are gays, we have nukes, our army landed on the moon. 

Even when they showd war scenes from donbass it felt so staged.

You have to find better propaganda minister. Only one supporting russians nowbis my granny who is old russian and watches pervi kanal only, even russians i know dont support this invasion at all.

[Eliz]

On 2/25/2022 at 9:40 AM, LoooSeR said:

 

Thats just show, kadirov guards are all over chechnya right now, there might be some in ukraine but most stay in chechnya. I think because of fear that rebelion will break up. 

[TINDALOS]

3 hours ago, Collimatrix said:

So...

I have a question, and I don't have an answer.

Right now, in English-language "respectable" news sources, I am seeing a lot of stories of Ukrainian bravery and staunch resistance and heavy Russian losses.  I am pretty sure that some of these stories might even be true.

But who exactly is collating these stories and publishing them to English-speaking audiences?  Does Ukraine have an incredibly slick media interface to their American allies that knows exactly what buttons to push?  Or am I watching mostly American self-deception?

I am increasingly convinced it is the latter.

Well... the mod of Ukraine right now is just like the mod of Iraq in 1991, but with overwhelming western non traditional media support. The whole ghost of Kiev bs is probably the most insane mental gymnastics since gulf war... Remeber when Iraq announce victory in Khafji?

 

Most of the westerns on twitter simply reapond: aLt0uGh iT iS fAkE I hOpE ITs tRue....

[Laviduce]

12 minutes ago, Eliz said:

Thats fault of russians, you open russian news website and what you see?! Putin is great, nato and western nations are gays, we have nukes, our army landed on the moon. 

Even when they showd war scenes from donbass it felt so staged.

You have to find better propaganda minister. Only one supporting russians nowbis my granny who is old russian and watches pervi kanal only, even russians i know dont support this invasion at all.

Both sides do this but the US definitely has  significant  advantages over Russia in this field. I would rate US propaganda far ahead Russia's in terms of quality and general sophistication. The US is more or less in control of the largest "news" networks on earth directly and indirectly via its satellite states in Europe and elsewhere. It literally had 70 years time to perfect the art and science of propaganda, subterfuge and molding the minds of people around the world.  The Chinese are even worse than the Russians when it comes to propaganda.

 

 

[Toxn]

2 hours ago, Pardus said:

 

You're so goddamn far off the mark is astonishing. Tell me, when did Ukraine, a democratic country, attack another country with chemical weapons? When did they commit crimes against humanity? When did they become a country controlled by terrorist groups? Things Iraq, Syria & Afghanistan were seperately guilty off.

 

Exactly what is it you consider an acceptable form of government type? Do you wish for people to be systematically oppressed by their government? 

 

Dictatorships & terrorist states are a thing all nations should strive to erradicate, not leave to grow and potentially spill over into other countries via aggressive actions. 

Dude, no. Just... I mean, did you fall into a coma in 2004 and only just wake up? Are you an amnesiac or something?

 

Knocking over other countries is a terrible idea if your purposes are to safeguard liberal democracy. Even if you grant someone the right to get rid of "dictators" and "terrorists" that run places in a way you don't like (and that's a planet-sized "if"), it never works. The locals never turn around, look at all the foreign troops lording it over them and go "you know what, we like these guys so much that we're going to vote for someone who aligns perfectly with their interests and never cause trouble again". 

 

If you actually believe in the concept of a liberal, rules-based international order, then the US declaring a bunch of countries guilty of a crime they didn't commit and invading them was one of the crimes of the new century. And even if you don't; it's results have been an unmitigated disaster by the very justifications that they themselves provided. No democracy flowered, no peace was achieved. The only beneficiaries were a bunch of defence contractors and an even more virulent crop of terrorists that the US effectively manufactured and spread around a quarter of the globe.

 

So if you are going to blame Russia for unprovoked aggression and breaking international norms, then you have to blame the US for showing them how it's done: never once apologizing for the act, and never facing any consequences except the inevitable blow-back that comes with some of the stupidest policy decisions in history. That's just basic mental consistency.

 

And if you really think that simply being able to paint your enemies as illiberal is all you need to justify any heinous act, then how is a democratically-elected Russian government, who sees the government in the Ukraine as the illegitimate result of a soft coup by the US, not also going to be able to use that to argue their case?

 

Learn to use your head, or get off this forum.

[Toxn]

2 minutes ago, TINDALOS said:

Well... the mod of Ukraine right now is just like the mod of Iraq in 1991, but with overwhelming western non traditional media support. The whole ghost of Kiev bs is probably the most insane mental gymnastics since gulf war... Remeber when Iraq announce victory in Khafji?

 

Most of the westerns on twitter simply reapond: aLt0uGh iT iS fAkE I hOpE ITs tRue....

Agreed. I'm getting real "Baghdad Bob but now we're all Iraqis" vibes from all of this.

[TINDALOS]

4 minutes ago, Eliz said:

Thats just show, kadirov guards are all over chechnya right now, there might be some in ukraine but most stay in chechnya. I think because of fear that rebelion will break up. 

Didn't they have a large column heading to Ukraine? Maybe a couple hundreds or thousanda of them are in Ukraine right now. It is simply impossible to move 12 thousand people from Grozny to Maripoul in one day on those shitty road.

[TINDALOS]

4 minutes ago, Toxn said:

Agreed. I'm getting real "Baghdad Bob but now we're all Iraqis" vibes from all of this.

Although I'm not a fan of Putin and definitely not a fan of Assad, Xi, Lukashenko etc, I still appreciate how the whole "liberal rule based international world order" got slowly debunked and dismantled in recent years... I would like to see those Pax Americana preachers' emotion after maybe one month.

[Toxn]

2 minutes ago, Laviduce said:

Both sides do this but the US definitely has  significant  advantages over Russia in this field. I would rate US propaganda far ahead Russia's in terms of quality and general sophistication. The US is more or less in control of the largest "news" networks on earth directly and indirectly via its satellite states in Europe and elsewhere. It literally had 70 years time to perfect the art and science of propaganda, subterfuge and molding the minds of people around the world.  The Chinese are even worse than the Russians when it comes to propaganda.

 

 

The US is the ultimate exemplar of modern industrial propaganda, and learned from the old master (the UK).

 

This is easy to demonstrate (if filled with tedious quotations and references), because where else is the narrative of "giant, technologically-advanced country rolls over smaller country and dominates them for twenty years for no good reason, only to leave in shame as the local lads make it too hard for them to stay" Full Metal Jacket and not Red Dawn: Kabul edition. Who else could even think of pulling of the move of "these guys fought the Reds and so we armed them and helped radicalize them, then they sat around for twenty years and did more or less nothing, then someone completely different hurt us and so we decided that they were evil monsters and had to go". That's some Eastasia-level shit right there, and that's without even looking at the sequel where they go "so we just left, but never lost, but are going to punish these guys forever about it, but the real fight were the lessons we learned along the way".

[Jägerlein]

 

Is there a russian yell corresponding to "Geronimo!" ?

[Toxn]

2 minutes ago, TINDALOS said:

Although I'm not a fan of Putin and definitely not a fan of Assad, Xi, Lukashenko etc, I still appreciate how the whole "liberal rule based international world order" got slowly debunked and dismantled in recent years... I would like to see those Pax Americana preachers' emotion after maybe one month.

See, I think we'll miss the concept once it's gone and we go back to the 18th or 19th centuries.

 

But goddamn was its biggest exponent also the biggest hypocrite.